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SusanTeach's Message:

Quote:
Teachers were extremely upset. Several cried, and one stormed out of the meeting slamming the door behind her.
This blows my mind, but I also find it ironic. You're discussing behavior of students and it sounds to me like the teachers are the ones needing some discipline. Seriously, that's so disrespectful.

We don't give laps for misbehavior. I just use a clip chart and clip them down if they misbehave. At the end of the day, if they haven't clipped back up, the rest of the class gets a piece of candy (one Skittle, mini marshmallow, etc...) and they don't. It's simple and cheap. If their misbehavior gets too extreme, I call parents. After that, they get an office referral.

If kids don't do homework, they work on it during recess, but then they get to go outside when it's finished. That's the only time mine miss recess, and they rarely forget homework.

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Discussion Review (newest messages first)
Lilacs 10-22-2017 03:46 PM

So our school has always taken time away from recess for behavior issues and going back to class for incomplete assignments. This year they were both removed. We give a behavior mark and one lap for each offense. At five they are sent to the office. This in some cases is too harsh in my opinion (especially if the tallies are for minor offenses). Homework, incomplete seatwork, behaviors from cheating - hitting- mean words - out of order can be unsharpened pencils, no name on paper, talking, work not put in done bin, following directions... receive a tally. I don't think kids see a difference in the level of the inappropriate behavior with this system. The work is still not being done (but I can give them a working silent snack - just not recess). However, the work does not get done during snack unless I work with them one on one. We were told the purpose was "natural consequences", but this is still not a natural consequence related to the issue. We were told this was going to put discipline issues on the parents shoulders, but you can't force parents to assume responsibility if they don't want it. The elementary staff called a meeting with admin four weeks ago to discuss the problem/solutions. We were told they would think about it and get back. Have not heard anything since. Sorry...I am frustrated at the moment. I don't think consequences or positive reinforcement is working for the problem kids???

anna 10-10-2017 08:41 PM

We have kids walk around a large painted circle during recess if a teacher deems it necessary after misbehavior. Thankfully teachers are trusted by admin to assign this consequence in a logical manner. Best of luck everyone as you navigate these days of distrust and micromanagement.

DolphinBeach 10-10-2017 04:11 PM

Thank you all for your responses. I found it interesting how there were so many different viewpoints among teachers!

readerleader 10-10-2017 02:55 PM

Our students are not allowed to be denied recess unless there is something so extreme they would be a danger to themselves or others.

Personally, I don't believe taking away or punishing students during recess teaches them anything.

Joker 45 10-09-2017 04:53 PM

Growing up in a Catholic school, we had to write an essay for punishment....made me hate writing.
Don't you think this may give students a negative attitude about walking/exercising?....being forced, not for enjoyment!

AD 10-07-2017 07:21 PM

It's so interesting how schools can vary from one to the next. Some people call walking a lap "corporal punishment" while others get upset when they are told they can't use that anymore as a consequence or discipline. Whereas at my school, we would not be allowed to use a clip chart for behavior and we are strongly discouraged to give candy as a reward.

SusanTeach 10-07-2017 02:49 PM

Quote:
Teachers were extremely upset. Several cried, and one stormed out of the meeting slamming the door behind her.
This blows my mind, but I also find it ironic. You're discussing behavior of students and it sounds to me like the teachers are the ones needing some discipline. Seriously, that's so disrespectful.

We don't give laps for misbehavior. I just use a clip chart and clip them down if they misbehave. At the end of the day, if they haven't clipped back up, the rest of the class gets a piece of candy (one Skittle, mini marshmallow, etc...) and they don't. It's simple and cheap. If their misbehavior gets too extreme, I call parents. After that, they get an office referral.

If kids don't do homework, they work on it during recess, but then they get to go outside when it's finished. That's the only time mine miss recess, and they rarely forget homework.
AD 10-07-2017 02:25 PM

I've used a lap of walking as an opportunity to get some movement and think about the problem. Our students run/walk one lap before recess (that's just standard and has nothing to do with behavior). Then on an infrequent occasion I might have a child walk an extra lap around the track to use as thinking time. Then we come together and have a conversation about the issue. Typically it's something that is persistent. I use the walking a lap as a quiet time to think before we talk vs. you walk because you are in trouble.

I'd rather have a kid walk and think than sit and think.

I think about my own children. If my child had a persistent behavior and they were going to do some problem solving with the teacher, I'd rather have them walk and think than sit and think.

Logical consequences are the best and that's what I use most often-you break it, you fix it. You lose it, you find it or make a new one...kids also need time to reflect. I'd rather walk and think than sit and think.

Walking a lap is hardly corporal punishment. Definition is "punishment intended to cause physical pain to a person". Walking a lap isn't physical pain. If that causes physical pain, we've got bigger problems. It's how you frame it. Is it used as punishment or is it used as an opportunity to spend a few minutes alone thinking about something while getting some movement at the same time?

kay/5 10-07-2017 12:42 PM

We don't have a schoolwide system for behavior. Several of our teachers use Class Dojo to report to parents about their individual child's behavior. I use a system called CHAMPS. I teach the kids my expectations for each different setting within our classroom - instruction, group work, silent reading, testing, etc... and the kids work towards earning points for each class period and then each day the point total may or may not earn the kids an extra recess. I also track the kids' misbehavior and send home behavior progress reports if behaviors get bad.

Gromit 10-07-2017 09:51 AM

Quote:
capital and corporal mixed up and I kept saying I think these kids should get capital punishment.
Gromit 10-07-2017 09:50 AM

Quote:
there has to be some sort of negative reinforcement. That's when they walk laps during recess.
By definition, reinforcement means anything that causes a behavior to continue. Negative reinforcement means that you remove (negative) something the learner does not want as a way to increase a particular behavior.

Adding (positive) something the learner doesnít want is positive punishment, and positive punishment has been scientifically shown to be an ineffective long term solution to unwanted behavior in learners of all species.

Tickets may be a reward system, but they are not necessarily a positive reinforcer for all students. Theyíre also very likely to be turned into a bribe by staff who misunderstand PR.

Quote:
Kid is shoving, hitting, etc. Logical consequence is you don't get to play with the others at recess. You can sit out, or you can walk laps by yourself. -
This is not necessarily a punishment (depending on how itís framed). Itís a choice the child makes. You may play with others respectfully or you may walk the perimeter individually. Doing this limits the fear-based behavior inhibition response and develops the self-inhibition response.
Quote:
The child played during work time and is now "making it up" during play time in the only way the teacher is allowed.
The child isnít making up work time by walking laps. The work that wasnít done is still not done.


Quote:
But a lot of today's kids just don't. (And pacing guides and over-testing leave precious little time for relationship building.
Positive reinforcement (again, actual PR not bribery or rewards) works to shift on task and desired behaviors to a significantly higher percentage of the time, leaving you more time to build relationships with those few kids who need more intervention, which in turn lets PR methods work more effectively for them, which leaves you more time to build relationships with those 1-2 kids who need intensive intervention.

I fall into the punishment trap too because it works instantly in the moment, and itís easy when youíre exhausted, but it is not sustainable and I am always more discouraged and deenergized when I go down that path.

Positive reinforcement works. Using it properly takes *a lot a lot* of effort on the front end - particularly if you are tired and discouraged and used to using punishment in the class - but it is meaningful effort that produces real results and ultimately makes teaching fun again.

I have a few very difficult kids this year, and they are taking *a lot* of my mental energy, but if I wasnít using positive reinforcement, Iíd be dealing with 5x as many difficult kids.
TheTrunch 10-07-2017 08:53 AM

You think the mistake of corporal punishment was . Well, when I was a new teacher I got capital and corporal mixed up and I kept saying I think these kids should get capital punishment.

linda2671 10-07-2017 06:12 AM

The idea is for them to miss recess. Way back before people discouraged any kind of punishment, we used to have them stand by the wall during recess if they misbehaved in class. When people started complaining that they were being deprived of exercise, we went to having them walk laps. Walking laps isn't the punishment. Losing playtime is.
Before anyone says that this is not an effective way to discipline, let me say that we also have a schoolwide reward system where kids get tickets for good behavior. We copy tickets to carry around with us. When kids are walking quietly in the halls, working quietly. Lining up quickly and quietly, they get tickets. Once a quarter, we have a "store" where kids can buy things with their tickets. Some things are tangible, like little cheap toys, and some aren't tangible, like lunch with your teacher, getting to sit in the teacher's chair for the day, or getting to choose the brain breaks for the day. Those positive things work for most of the kids, but there are times when kids don't respond to positive reinforcements. If they are being disruptive during class or hurting others, there has to be some sort of negative reinforcement. That's when they walk laps during recess. Repeat offenders are put in ISS, and they don't get physical exercise. Parents seem to prefer to have them walk laps.
A lawsuit for having them walk laps? Did they win? Seriously?

I never heard of walking laps being called corporal punishment.

Update:

Quote:
negative reinforcement
Instead of negative reinforcement, I should have said negative consequence.
Lakeside 10-07-2017 03:13 AM

I guess I don't think kids should be "made" to walk laps. But I do agree with "allowing" them to walk laps if missing recess is the appropriate punishment.

For example: Kid is shoving, hitting, etc. Logical consequence is you don't get to play with the others at recess. You can sit out, or you can walk laps by yourself. - So kid is still not happy, but parent isn't complaining about lack of fresh air and exercise.

I can kind of understand how this was the breaking point for some teachers, though. Every punishment they had in their arsenal has been slowly taken away. You can't have them write lines anymore, you can't take away recess, you can't...

All of this positive stuff is great, if the child likes you and wants to please you. But a lot of today's kids just don't. (And pacing guides and over-testing leave precious little time for relationship building.) What works really well with one or two kids at home is just not always practical with 25 at once.

seenthelight 10-06-2017 08:59 PM

From it I understand that part. I make them stay in and do the work because my P allows me to do so. What I'm unclear on is what a teacher in a school that does not allow children to be kept in from recess is supposed to do. Presumably, they are doing the same basic thing. The child played during work time and is now "making it up" during play time in the only way the teacher is allowed. Now, again, my kids do not do laps. My kids stay in from recess until the missing work is complete. Usually after one or two missed recesses, they realize that if I'm missing my lunch time for this then I'm dead serious when I say that I will do it every single time. No bluffing, the behavior stops.

NCteacher 10-06-2017 07:44 PM

Walking laps is indeed corporal punishment! I worked in a city school system several years ago where a teacher was having kids walk laps at recess and there was a law suit about it. The school district had a no paddling policy- so no corporal punishment. I know that the definition of corporal punishment is to inflict pain on the body, but somehow there was a lawsuit. Our principals have to annually sign a document saying that no student will be forced to walk laps for punishment. I don't think it is making inactive kids walk as punishment, it is taking the choice of play away.

It is difficult, because of all the emphasis on positive behaviors. That is NOT a bad thing, but I do think there should be consequences for negative behaviors.

Gromit 10-06-2017 07:10 PM

Quote:
You played during work time, therefore you now have to work during play time.
Walking laps is different than doing the work during play time. One is a logical consequence - the work must be done and you choose when you do it. The other is punitive - you didn't do what I asked and, therefore, something negative must happen to you.

Quote:
So what's the problem? A
Punishment does not instill internal self-control. It also generally has to be ramped up as the learner becomes callused to whatever the punishment is. It is not effective when the learner knows that he/she is not being watched or has a low chance of being found out.

Punishment is most effective when it is consistently applied but positive reinforcement is most effective when intermittently applied. The level of surveillance required for punishment to be effective is basically impossible in a classroom. Then, since the learner "gets away with it" and is therefore reinforced for it, and since positive reinforcement works best intermittently, the unwanted behavior actually becomes *more* entrenched. Punishment is also most effective when it is immediately connected to the unwanted behavior, which things like walking laps cannot be.

*note that I use the term "positive reinforcement" with its actually meaning, not in its bribery sense that most people associate with it
seenthelight 10-06-2017 06:29 PM

I think the reaction of the teachers was inappropriate. However, I fail to see the problem with walking laps. To me the loss of recess is the logical consequence of slacking off. You played during work time, therefore you now have to work during play time. Just as in adult life, if I slack off and don't do my lesson plans then instead of going to happy hour, I have to stay in and get them done. Thankfully, I have a P that allows me to hold them in from recess. It usually only takes once or twice to cure the problem. That being said, there are plenty of people who will throw a hissy fit if you take recess saying that the kid that's slacking off is probably the overactive kid that most needs recess to burn off energy and focus. Okay, then fine, have the kid walk laps. Kid is losing play time which is the logical consequence while still getting the apparently very necessary physical activity (personally, I don't think that one or two lost recesses hurt that kid, but I'll try to see all sides). So what's the problem? And I'm not saying that sarcastically, I am truly trying to understand what the issue with walking laps is, and again mine don't walk laps, they flat out miss recess.

binkbonk 10-06-2017 02:15 PM

I have never heard of such a thing and it absolutely would not be allowed here.

kahluablast 10-06-2017 05:08 AM

Our p did the same thing. That was about 3 years ago. I agree with it on some levels. For some kids it does not work. (Or maybe it does and those frequent annoying things they do would be bigger?). Those kids that are consistently in there walking need something different. But the number of kids who are worried about having to walk laps have a consequence that deters them from MANY rule breaking behaviors.

Putting all consequences into the classroom really puts every single thing on the teacher's shoulders. What is a logical consequence for running when and where they aren't supposed to? Every single teacher tells some kids to walk every single day. What is their consequence? Nothing, and they know it. We have more kids breaking rules, and the breakers are more and more bold. They can handle a lecture easily. What is a logical consequence that doesn't involve me being out during my plan time/break time and having kids walk back and forth?

We have discipline slips that are used for major offenses. Nothing for smaller ones.

BRONX 10-06-2017 02:41 AM

I would be terminated even with tenure if I did that. Or not allowed to teach and be reassigned. So now the kids who call out are the healthiest?
We do walk laps as a school but we use it as an event to raise money. We have a theme, or everyone wears a special shirt for cancer awareness, smile train, or hurricane relief. We play music outside and we aim for 4 laps which is a mile. It is a fun morning and then the kids listen for the amount we raised.

Kids with fitness trackers in the Spring can walk the same laps and chat with friends and the lunch assistants if they want to add steps or do a mile.

Interesting to think in some schools it is a punishment and in others it is for a positive reason.

TaffyFL 10-05-2017 05:17 PM

I know several teachers have kids walk laps. I notice that same kids walk laps every day: so are they learning anything?

I try to give out logical consequences and walking laps never seems logical to me. If someone is being disruptive they are removed from the group until they are ready. If someone is being too rough at recess, they take a time out. Stuff like that. Recess is their time and the kids who act the worst need it the most, in my opinion.

KatieViolet 10-05-2017 04:56 PM

No, we don't do laps and rarely take away recess (if so, it's done as an occasionally consequence when it is the logical one, but not for repeated offenses) Misbehavior needs to be dealt with in the moment, perhaps moving the student to another part of the classroom or another room, talking to parent, etc. also you need a positive reinforcement plan that seeks to minimize those behaviors in the first place. I always liked Class Dojo, which has the inherent motivation of earning points/losing them.

Gromit 10-05-2017 02:53 PM

Quote:
Teachers were extremely upset. Several cried, and one stormed out of the meeting slamming the door behind her.
Talk about an overreaction.

Walking laps doesn't solve the behavior you mentioned (or any misbehavior that I can think of, except maybe refusing to do PE?). It simply punishes.

Punishment works temporarily, but the problem is that - unless the need that is being fulfilled by interrupting, calling out, and arguing is fulfilled in another way or unless the ability to demonstrate appropriate response inhibition and conflict management is taught - you're just going to have to keep escalating your punishment.

Our schoolwide system is to reinforce good behavior, intervene early for misbehavior to correct and reteach, and send students to the dean of students for more targeted logical interventions if it continues to escalate.
ZipLine 10-05-2017 01:28 PM

Walking laps isn't corporal punishment. If that was the case, every gym teacher or coach is guilty of using it. Corporal punishment is punishment that causes physical pain- like paddling. The old "Board of Education." Walking during recess at least gives the kids the opportunity to be active and burn off energy. That's always good!

The elementary students in my former district have a student spiral that includes a weekly homework log and behavior log with the school's core virtues. Students get a mark/note on the behavior log for any infractions. Some teams used the log and having all work completed for students to earn extra recess at the end of the week. A student did not earn the extra recess if any assignments were missing and their behavior log exceeded 2 marks for the week. Students that had incomplete work or more than 2 marks stayed in during the extra recess, either to complete work or work on a reflection sheet. One team teacher took those kids. Recess was an extra 30 minutes. Even without the spiral like my school used, you can still adapt the idea if it appealed to your team. Or think up some other incentives that would work for you. Good luck!

Mikhail 10-05-2017 12:54 PM

I think that you guys might be the last school I know that uses corporal punishment. Here's the logic, if the kid is inactive, make the student do laps. I know I'm oversimplifying things. I can't believe how you guys had been doing it since most of the schools I know of dropped corporal punishment twenty years ago.

DolphinBeach 10-05-2017 12:44 PM

Hi all-

Our principal announced during grade level meetings yesterday that she no longer wanted students walking laps at recess. She would prefer logical consequences be given in the classroom instead. Teachers were extremely upset. Several cried, and one stormed out of the meeting slamming the door behind her.

So I was just wondering if teachers at your school give students laps for misbehavior (interrupting, calling out, arguing, etc.). If not, do you have some sort of schoolwide system that you use instead?

Thanks!




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