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-   -   Classroom Management students arguing with teacher (http://www.proteacher.net/discussions/showthread.php?t=617992)

Kishkumen 04-16-2019 06:05 AM

students arguing with teacher
 
A student talks too much, so I ask him to move his assigned seat to another table
The student refuses to move.
I repeat the instruction, but the student tries to argue, bargain, and otherwise delay hoping I'll just give up and him stay there.

Now I'm in a power struggle with the student. The entire lesson has stopped to deal with one student.

Yesterday I caught an 8th grader eating cheetos in my class. I asked for her to hand them to me, and she could have them back at the end of the day. She refused. Then she said "okay, I'll put them in my backpack". I didn't argue with her, but repeated the instruction. Then she said she took the bus, so she couldn't get them back. She thought she should be except from consequences because they were inconvenient to her!

I don't argue with students. I just repeat the instruction again. And again. And again. And again. The students argue with me.

What do you do when students refuse to follow direct instructions? This happens daily in several classes (I teach k-8 art, with about 30 classes seen over the week).

Fenwick 04-17-2019 02:41 PM

Note Pad and Letter On the Desk

I can't force a student to follow directions. I carry a small notepad in my pocket. When the student refuses or starts backtalk I calmly and slowly take it out, flip to a blank page and start to write. I make sure I stop and look at the student as I write. I say nothing. I look at the clock and note time. I look at students sitting around target and write names. I want target to think I'm writing a police report. Often I just doodle. I slowly put pad back in my pocket while maintaining eye contact. I say nothing. Then I walk away. Often students will want to know what I'm writing. I tell them, "I'm writing down what I think should happen to you for not following directions." Then I add, " I'm still thinking about it and will let you know. Hopefully, you will solve the problem so I won't have to do anything." If the target still does not comply fully I stop them as they are leaving the room. In private I show them a form letter on school stationary which I have filled in (I keep copies at my desk):

Dear _______ (Parent Name)

Today, ______ (date) I had a problem with _______ (student's name). The problem is _________________________ (be specific and list only one). I will be calling you in the next couple of days to set up a parent-teacher conference. I know working together we can help ___________ (student's name again) solve this problem.

Respectfully,

(signature)

type name

I read the letter to the student, fold it and put it in a school envelope which I have addressed (parent name(s) only). Then I tell the student, "Tomorrow when you enter the classroom this letter will be sitting on my desk so you can see it. If there are no more problems like the one discussed in this letter, you may at the end of class and in front of me, tear up the letter and throw it away. However if there is any problem like discussed in the letter it will be delivered to your parents even if I have to hand deliver it."

Tawaki 04-18-2019 06:03 AM

Welp...
 
*because it's this late in the game*

The Cheetos Girl, if she shut up, but the Cheetos away in her back pack it's #winning. The goal was getting the snack put away.

About Chatty Charlie. You are engaged with him, and this kid loves the attention. How much power to grind the class to a total halt? What ratty tween wouldn't love that? I got to "make an adult look stupid". Is there anything better than that?

If I'm running out of facks to give, and not coming back...as long as he isn't screaming/strangling/running on top of the desks...knock his grade down for not following instructions and his little chatty buddies too. Or whatever your participation part factors into the final grade.

If it's the whispery chatter nonsense, and everyone can more or less hear you, ignore this clown and his buddies. I would not give him instructions or explain anything. He asks, walk away. I wouldn't say anything more than ask someone else.

The only time I repeated information in a dead pan delivery is with ODD kids.

You can do the X
You can sit quietly at your desk
You can go to recharge island

That's a different deal than what you're describing.

Repeating instructions when the class has come off the rails doesn't do much except make.you hoarse and frustrated. You cut your losses at this end of the game.

Lakeside 04-18-2019 07:16 AM

she said: "okay, I'll put them in my backpack"
you say: "that will do" - with a nod/tone/look that implies that's exactly what you wanted all along

Talker who won't move - I agree with knocking the grade. You can't physically move them, and a power struggle is not what you want.

"This is the last time I am going to ask you to move. If you choose not to, the alternative is __ points off your grade." - If they don't move, walk over to your grade book, note it, and go on with class.

Kinderkr4zy 04-21-2019 10:50 AM

I think it would be helpful to you to ask yourself what is most important-

a. That the student puts the snack away since it shouldn't be out
b. That the student does exactly what you tell them to do exactly when you tell them to do it

I think if the goal is goal#a then her response was fine in that it meets the needs for both parties (your need for the snack to be away and her need to have access to it when she is able to eat it)

If your hope is goal#b then I think it might be most helpful at this point in the year to reevaluate why you are going to goal # b.

Goal B is often going to be a struggle and it might take a timely interventions to work on the skills related to it. It s a good beginning of the year goal since it can take a long time to accomplish as it is linked to several skills that would need to be taught such as: flexibility of thinking, the ability to shift from one plan to another quickly, The ability to suppress/inhibit actions and consider their possible outcomes, The ability to use time effectively.

Goal A is more manageable and reasonable to implement at this point in the school year.

If you feel compelled to have goal B, even when it is rather complicated and late in the game to do so, perhaps ask yourself why. Then when you have that answer reevaluate if you really want to push forward with goal B today.

In the case of the student who is talking and wont move I would let it go in the moment because-you cant make anyone do anything. Then I would pull the kids aside later one-on-one and talk to him about it and give him a different seat assignment then. Older kids often will not do what you tell them to in front of their peers because they feel embarrassed and they would rather take any punishment you can give then to have to put their tail between their legs in front of their peer group. In the moment you wanted the talking to stop so if t were me I would have just told the student that you noticed a lot of talking today so you would find him later in the day to talk about it. That lets him know you are aware of the talking and plan to do something about it (hopefully that helps curb the talking in the moment) but it save the talk for later when he doesnt have to be Mr. tough guy in front of his friends.

Then that chair would be missing the next class period with that student.

But that's just my 2 cents-for what its worth.

Kishkumen 04-23-2019 06:03 PM

Thanks for the advice.

I tried the note-taking thing (I already do that on my seating chart, but I also note daily participation grades so it's too common to be noticed). I used a half sheet of paper and calmly took notes of the six defiant students, and then use those to contact parents. It seemed to work fine today. At least it keeps the kids nervous while I stay calm.

Tragically, those students have had Ds an Fs in my art class all year, and if their parents cared at all, they would have done something already.

I've tried to enforce Goal B all year. It worked at first, but then students started to ignore me, because the PBIS consequences are too weak to be effective (do whatever you want, so long as you only get caught three times)

I'll have to stick with Goal A. But should accomplishing goal A require several minutes of the student bargaining and arguing to accomplish? A simple "put that away, please" is ignored by students.

I did have success with that student today, though. He showed interest in the 3D paper aircraft model (an Su-27 at 1:144 scale) and I took half a minute to explain how the parts are drawn and then cut out, folded and glued. He was given a simple model (only 4 parts) with the promise that I'd show him how to build that one when possible (the Su-27 takes me 45 minutes, so not a chance he could build that)

ponyowner 05-07-2019 08:56 AM

9th teacher
 
I too repeat the directive several times. I also stand VERY close to the student. It often makes them uncomfortable, and I say that I will move away if they do what I say; soon they follow the directive. If they want to enter an argument I try to remove them from the room either by their own accord or I call security.


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