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Harassment claims since Harvey Weinstein
Old 11-10-2017, 11:41 AM
  #1

I have been thinking about the whole Harvey Weinstein situation. Since the allegations came out about him, there is at least one new one coming out every day about other actors and people who work in the business.

I might get flamed with a huge blowtorch for this but I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. On the one hand, I am estatic that Weinstein was punished more severely than any man as least in Hollywood has ever. His career is ruined which he truly deserves. I think this whole thing may set a precedent for curbing this type of behavior once and for all.

Now, since the incident, many many other men in Hollywood have been outed for doing the same thing. This is kind of scary though I am happy that all of their careers will be ruined. I hope the amount of women being harassed is greatly reduced as a result.

The thing that worries me is that this thing gets too carried away to where people start being falsely accused because it is becoming easier to make a claim and have it taken seriously. I know that I can’t think of what anyone would have to gain by making up a claim that doesn’t exist but you never know what some motives might be such as getting money.

I just think of teachers who might as a result of all of this have students from years ago suddenly come forward and make claims that are not true.

I am all for the guilty getting what they deserve and women being able to fight back and not be taken advantage of. On the other hand, I don’t think that people who have always behaved in a respectable manner deserve to be lied about and have their names dragged through the mud, careers ruined, and possibly go to jail for nothing. I know this is something that has happened in teachers before who have been innocent. Even if they are vindicated, their lives are ruined.


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Old 11-10-2017, 12:36 PM
  #2

Iím so glad you posted. I was going to post something along the same topic. What bothers me is that when women are harassed no one believes them.

But, one man accused Kevin Spacey and heís fired from ďHouse of CardsĒ and basically untouchable. The double standard is appalling.

I think that so many women are coming forward because they know only one wonít be believed. And, I fear if itís proven even one is lieing all of them will be cast in same light. And, one of the many may very well be lieing in hopes of getting some of the money or fame.
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I find it interesting that the same people
Old 11-10-2017, 01:04 PM
  #3

who are willing to believe all the allegations coming out about entertainers (which I totally believe), but are falling all over themselves defending the likes of Roy Moore and Donald Trump.

I don't think it is any secret to any woman, alive or dead, that men in general have a really hard time keeping their hands to themselves, especially when they are in positions of power and authority.

The fact that they are now being called on their outrageous behavior is an excellent sign of progress.

As for the idea that it happened so long ago, should their lives be ruined, etc. Trust me, if they did it to ONE woman who now has the guts to come out (e.g., Diana Nyad), they probably did it to dozens of others who are not going to go public. It is never just ONE woman. These predators make it a hobby. I am not going to waste one moment worrying about whether their lives are ruined.

False allegations? That could definitely be an issue. I am still all for training girls and women to fight back (physically, verbally, administratively, legally) in the moment, regardless of the situation.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:33 PM
  #4

Just to clarify, I completely agree that anyone guilty of such allegations deserves to have his life ruined regardless of how long ago it happened. The people who are falsely accused are the ones who I think donít deserve to have their lives ruined.
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I Applaud These Women
Old 11-10-2017, 02:11 PM
  #5

for coming out and speaking up.

I just wish they had come out sooner...when it first happened...to spare others from going through it.

I know that these were very powerful men and the women were much younger then.

In the allegations against comic Louis CK, they said he pleasured himself in front of them.

If I were in that situation, I would have simply turned and walked right out the door.

We need to teach our girls how to be strong women.

We need to teach our girls how to be careful, cautious around men and not put themselves into dangerous situations...to hone their radar...to not be so trusting...to stop being so concerned with people-pleasing and start looking out for themselves.

For example, I have never ever been drunk...even at a party, I'm stone cold sober...and aware of everything going on around me...Through the years, I've seen the men (drunk off their behinds) at their most hideous. I've heard their "sweet talk" many times, but their drunken stupor and my sober ears, just make these fellas clownish and I'm totally able to resist.

Since my faculties are not impaired, I'm able to keep myself safe.

I am fearful for these girls who go off and party and impair their faculties to the point that they're in life-threatening situations. Watch Dateline and 48 Hours and see the sad truth.

We need to teach our girls to be leaders...to be ever-vigilant...to be aware...to stand up and say NO! (even at the risk of their career or social life).

We need to teach our girls to be confident and to show off their best body part: their brains.

As an aside: My family and I went on a hike yesterday. We came upon two teenage girls. They had taken off their tee shirts and were in their bras taking selfies and sending those photos out into cyberspace for any old pervert to view.

I know...It's wonderful to be young, beautiful, sexy, and full of vitality.

But, we need to teach our girls some modesty and decorum.

I agree with another PTer about the inclinations of men.

If men have such a hard time controlling themselves, then we, women, need to take the reins and be in control.

Remember the old movies where an unasked for kiss gave the smooching man a swift slap across the face?


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Old 11-10-2017, 03:31 PM
  #6

My friends and I were saying the same thing. It's like a dam broke. I do sometimes wonder about the veracity of some claims. (False claims damage the person accused, but also other true claims).

CK Louis was mentioned yesterday and I just saw he said the stories are true. Charlie Sheen has denied.

I keep wondering, who is next?

Are men really such pigs?
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:37 PM
  #7

My biggest thing in all of this is why didn't they say this when it happened rather than years later.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:23 PM
  #8

There is not enough money in the world to make me believe any claim against Charlie Sheen is false. Iím sorry, but heís a dog. You just know heís guilty as sin.

I also have a hard time believing Jeremy Piven is innocent.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:32 PM
  #9

There are many reasons why harrassment and assault are not reported. Fear, lack of power, embarrassment, shame, knowing that they'll be questioned and doubted. Listen to Aly Raisman (holder of multiple world and Olympic gymnastics medals) on 60 minutes this Sunday. The world gymnastics team doctor has been accused of assaulting 100+ girls, and only a few came forward, and only after several years.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:45 PM
  #10

Quote:
Are men really such pigs?
I think when they are in a position of great power, many of them find that too hard to resist and yes they are. None of these allegations surprise me. Hopefully outing all of these men will make others think twice in the future.


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Old 11-10-2017, 05:05 PM
  #11

The thought that somehow a victim of sexual abuse should cry foul soon after the attack is thought provoking . Let me explain. It is a smothered but still alive feeling to be sexually abused. It is embarrassing and a great loss of self. No one wants to listen to you unless you are accomplished already in your field and have some "power." Unless you already have power in your back pocket,most victims stay silent.

Any person crying abuse should be listened to without the listener expressing doubt.
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Vehemently disagree
Old 11-10-2017, 05:07 PM
  #12

Sorry, Persephone, but I vehemently disagree with most of what you posted. It's not about women being smarter or dressing more modestly or not putting themselves in certain situations. Absolutely nothing I wear or don't wear gives anyone the right to touch, harass, or assault me. No. Right. The majority of what you posted is akin to victim shaming.

The same goes for my son. There is nothing he could wear that would give someone the right to touch him.

Quote:
But, we need to teach our girls some modesty and decorum.
No. We need to teach our boys to keep their damn hands to themselves!

Last edited by h0kie; 11-10-2017 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 11-10-2017, 05:46 PM
  #13

We should never blame the victim
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I also disagree
Old 11-10-2017, 05:54 PM
  #14

Quote:
But, we need to teach our girls some modesty and decorum.
First of all, modesty and decorum have absolutely nothing to do with being attacked by a violent predator.

Second: We need to teach our girls to fight, to make a fuss if someone bothers them, to not be afraid to challenge predators in every sense possible.

As a feminist, I definitely see the events of the past few months as a huge juncture of critical mass for female consciousness. It is as if women collectively hit a tipping point, where we just said, "That's it. No F'n More."
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Old 11-10-2017, 07:11 PM
  #15

I agree with h0kie and Clarity. Sober people are assaulted. Nuns and infants are assaulted. It has nothing to do with how one is dressed or one's sobriety level. Rape is about power, not sex.
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My Point Was
Old 11-10-2017, 09:59 PM
  #16

NOT to shame victims

I think that women should be stronger and more self-confident.

Women should NOT put themselves in harm's way.

Women should be more careful about what they do and who they associate with.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:40 AM
  #17

I get what Persephone is saying, but I think were are probably talking about two different issues here. Thinking of myself, I made many a dumb decision
when I was younger that potentially put myself in harms way, mostly due to alcohol. Luckily, there were no predators around .

If I had been assaulted, would it have been my fault? Absolutely not. If I had made smarter choices, would I have been assaulted? Probably not.

What Persephone is saying is probably advice (in terms of being safe) we would give our daughters and maybe sons (thinking in terms of the fraternity incidences). In that case, can we really say it’s victim shaming? Are we inadvertently sending that message we warn our daughters it’s not a good idea to be drunk in a room full of men? Just throwing thoughts out there.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:24 AM
  #18

This is my view:
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:25 AM
  #19

I also like this one:
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:22 AM
  #20

I think there is a fine line in the actions (and the conversation) here. Of course, it isn't okay to rape a woman because she is dressed provocatively. But on the other hand, dressing provocatively sends a message, and I doubt any of us want our young daughters sending that message. Does it encourage rape? No, but it can encourage uncontrolled minds in ways we don't want. And uncontrolled minds are often not thinking straight due to the use of drugs and alcohol. So, I told my dd's the same thing. It doesn't make it right, but you have to protect yourself. You don't just walk out into the middle of a busy street without checking for traffic. You don't just expect drivers to be able to stop immediately for you. You look both ways and ensure it is safe.

I do think we have to separate the kind of activities and abuse we discuss clearly, because it doesn't all fall under the same umbrella. It isn't all black and white. Drinking and losing control at a party is one situation. Power inequalities that lead to unacceptable situations is a second one. Add drugs and alcohol to the power situation and there is another different situation.

I do think that situations that occur because people are impaired by alcohol are a lot more difficult to put blame on. Truthfully, I am not sure that just saying no after you have hit a certain point WITH alcohol intake in the mix is due to bad choices on both parties. I don't know that I think every one of those situations is the male's responsibility. Women have to take some responsibility in those situations and we can't just point at the guy.

I don't agree that by trying to teach our kids not to dress so provocatively is the same as telling them not to get raped. Really, some of the outfits girls (and women?-haven't been out for so long) are wearing are for what purpose? Fishnet stocking, high heels, skirts so short you don't even have to use your imagination, belly exposed, breasts exposed to wear you can almost see nipples... What is the purpose of that? Getting attention. What kind of attention are you looking for? You can get that attention by dressing much more subtly. You don't have to have it all exposed.
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While I have raised my daughters to be strong
Old 11-11-2017, 07:28 AM
  #21

We should put just as much time into raising our sons to respect others and not believe, for even one second, that they have the right to touch or harass others. I'm sorry, but your post reeks of the "blame the victim" mentality.

I was taught to be a strong woman and I do not drink, but I have still found myself in uncomfortable situations with men who have sexually harassed me. This is often about power and fear of retribution.

Instead of blaming women for being harassed, we need to confront the men who think it is ok to do it.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:34 AM
  #22

George Takei is now under fire.

I don't think these things are the victims fault. I am 70ish ( hurts to say it) and I have lived through this evolution.

Women used to want to be famous for riches and glory.

Many men wanted to be famous for boatloads of riches and women or young men.

It was taken for granted that once men were powerful, they could have any woman ( or boy) they wanted. It was the perk of power. It has been comsidered the perk of power through out all of history.

People took these things as a given.

Now it is changing. It has been for about 30th years or so very slowly.

These things are terrible, but people used to respond like it was a given. Now it's an outrage. Change is here. And we all lived to see it.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:47 AM
  #23

Wow. This has become an interesting discussion. I love hearing the different perspectives. I am glad that women are starting to feel more comfortable exposing men in power for their wrongdoings and the men are receiving harsher consequences as a result.

I just hope that this new comfort level doesn’t cause someone outside of the industry to falsely accuse someone. That was my main point.

My husband subbed for 11 years and did his job correctly and professionally. I would hate the movement to encourage a former student he subbed for to make a claim that he did something to her, which would be a lie. It could even be a him. The chances of it happening I guess are not very high and maybe I am just being parinoid, but it is something I have been thinking about.

No teacher could be immune to accusations and that includes women. Though I guess this whole thing is mainly about women taking back power from men so maybe people won’t think to falsely accuse women.
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:24 AM
  #24

I see and understand both sides of the issue. No one is in the wrong with their posts on this thread.

We can't control others. We can only control ourselves. We can raise our sons to do the right thing, but we can't control others' sons who weren't taught how to treat women. Therefore, as a woman, I control MYSELF. I am in charge of myself. Period. What I choose to do to protect myself, etc. is up to ME, knowing I cannot control others' actions.

Not sure if this makes sense and I don't really care if it does to others or not. It does to me and that is all that matters. Women have to be strong and they also have to be smart. Neither will totally protect them from evil. But, I'm sure going to do what I can/have to to protect myself from evil.

It's no different that having to now be aware of our surroundings in a movie theater, or a mall, or a church. Sad reality, but reality, nonetheless.

Society sucks at times. Always has, always will. As human beings, we all need to be aware of that.

Again-this is how I live my life. Others can disagree, tell me I shouldn't have to be aware, be safe, take precautions because OTHERS shouldn't do bad things. Well, others DO do bad things. Period. I can't change that, other than in my own corner of the world, which is very small in this big bad world we live in.

Edited to add: Situations differ. In the case of Weinstein (sp?), those women were placed in situations whereby they thought they were discussing jobs...many had no idea what he was like. However...word apparently got around, and creepo got a reputation that was apparently well known in Hollywood. Those who knew about his reputation walked into it (I'm assuming) knowing his history. Was a job more important than avoiding his creepy behavior? Did they think he would behave differently with them than he did with other women? Not sure what went through their minds. YES. Creepo was wrong. No doubt about it. Each woman has to make their own decisions in life, but I don't think I would be meeting with creepo had I known about his reputation. Granted...I wasn't put in that position and it is easy for me to say that from the sidelines.

Hopefully, society is changing. However, I don't have hope that things will ever change. Once one issue is addressed, others pop up. (Mental illness, mass shootings come to mind).

Last edited by eliza4one; 11-11-2017 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:20 AM
  #25

Quote:
Women have to be strong and they also have to be smart. Neither will totally protect them from evil. But, I'm sure going to do what I can/have to to protect myself from evil.
This reminds me of an old, but awesome book (mentioned on PT before):

The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

I believe every one, male and female, should read it.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:34 PM
  #26

IMO, the whole sentiment of teaching "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape," is not about general safety things like being aware of your surroundings. Everyone knows that violently attacking a stranger is wrong and that there are "bad people" out there.

However, there are many men who would consider themselves "good guys" who think that purposely plying a woman with drinks so that he can have sex with her (knowing that she'd say no sober), or that having sex with a woman who is completely passed out is perfectly acceptable behavior. There are even women that have a "boys will be boys" attitude about this sort of thing. In many families (including mine, growing up) it was repeatedly stressed that women shouldn't get drunk, shouldn't go to parties, and shouldn't wear revealing clothing. Basically, the attitude was that since the boys simply can't help themselves, the onus is on the girls to not "put themselves in danger." Meanwhile, no one is talking to the boys about consent.

Before someone chimes in and says that they do talk to their sons about consent- I'm not saying this never happens. I'm just saying that it's not very prevalent, and often even when it is discussed, it's in the frame of, "Here's how you can make sure you don't get falsely accused of rape," instead of talking about how lack of consent IS rape.
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