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Too many teachers
Old 08-20-2012, 07:45 AM
 
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Not really sure if this belongs here, but not sure where to post it. We all know, even those of you with perm jobs, there are too many teachers and not enough jobs. This will probably never turn around to the point of all the teachers who are currents unemployed getting full time employment as teachers. So, why are colleges letting MORE people graduate with edu majors? Seriously, I can't understand this. I mean, the students are stupid for picking an edu major now, but maybe they don't understand how bad it is. Can anyone explain this to me?


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This will be easy.
Old 08-20-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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Money. The universities are businesses and they need to make money.

The students? There was a lot of hype not to long ago about teachers being in short demand. Maybe that's why some pick. IDK. For some, I am sure teaching is all they wanted to do. For me? I was a social worker who worked in group homes teaching life skills...I decided I would love to do that for children & for other reasons and went back for SPED.

The government? There is equal opportunity now and there are a lot of people in the past who would not be able to do to college and know since the inventions of grants and stipends, more people are able to go to college. There is now arguably unequal amount of college grads to jobs.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:34 AM
 
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Think about it. Why would any school tell a student not to become a teacher? They want their money! I remember my professor telling me I will have no problem finding a job. He told the whole class that there ARE jobs out there. He was wrong about it being easy to find a job, but he was right about the jobs being out there. There are jobs, we just weren't taught how to network to get a job. Now THAT would be a class I would have taken!
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Yep, money
Old 08-20-2012, 08:44 AM
 
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If they stopped teaching Ed classes, then all of the professors would be out of a job! I think they just tell their students what the students want to hear (that there's jobs) and once you graduate reality hits. Totally not fair, but there it is.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:03 AM
 
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I know it would suck for tenure professors, but they could always shuffle them around or put them in grad courses. Just fire the nontenure/ta they treat like dirt anyway. I really do universities should do something. I'm sure half, if not more, students would pick another course if you leveled with them and told them "Look, no one is hiring in a lot of places and those who are get thousands of applications". I love children, but if I knew this back when I was in school, I would went something else I enjoyed in college.


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Old 08-20-2012, 10:56 AM
 
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I agree it is stupid to pick education as a major right now. You really have to have had your head in the sand to not know how there are no jobs in education. I started taking classes in education in 04, and graduated in 09. Back then before the economy got bad nobody knew how bad it was. If I had known I guarantee I would've picked a different major. It really makes me mad how universities continue to allow students to major in education knowing how hard jobs are to come by. For example I went to 2 job fairs not that long ago. Lines were massive, and I can't tell you how many stories I heard from other teachers about not being able to find jobs. Some were like me who had graduated and couldn't find anything but subbing, and others were teachers with years of experience being laid off. At one job fair I went to every booth the principals said "we don't have any openings right now". Well then why have a job fair. At the job fair I heard lots of teachers talking about leaving teaching before even getting started (like i am) cause they can't find jobs. It is so sad to spend this many years in school to not be able to find jobs in what you studied for. Universities are to blame. They encourage students to major in education and give them false hope. I agree its about the money. They get money when students pay tuition. But its at the cost of these education students future cause it will be difficult to find jobs.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:12 AM
 
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I really don't think we should blame colleges and educators. They are just doing their jobs. I mean think about it...Many people own unhealthy greasy fast food joints. They know the food they make and sell is bad for people's health, yet because they have customers that "want" the food, they stay in business because they are making millions. Education is similar in the fact that people "want" to teach. As long as people want to go to school for teaching, schools will have teacher education programs.

I originally went to school for something completely different than teaching and graduated in 2007. About two years later, I decided to go back to school because that was my passion. I wanted to work with kids. By the time I finished in 2010, there was massive budget cuts and no way that I could have found a job. So, I started working in a non-teaching position because honestly subbing just doesn't cut it for me. The pay in subbing is week and it doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. When I was offered a job as a Long Term Sub, I jumped at the opportunity. Now, here I am searching for full time employment yet again. Should I blame my college for not warning me of the outcome? No, I cannot blame them. Teaching is what I want to do as a profession. I am going to try as hard as I can do get a job in the field. If it doesn't work out then it wasn't meant to be. But I am not going to stop trying. For some people going into teaching, they are probably the same way.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:13 PM
 
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I don't think it's a good example, because lots of students, as yourself prove, change their majors at some point. It's not like it a university, or all of them, cut the edu classes, everyone would drop out. Most would change their major if given the reason why. I don't mean the school should never ever teach edu classes again. I just think they should cut them for 2-10 years depending on the area. Then once restarted, they should only let a limited number back in. I can't remember what field it was, but I know of someone who didn't get into the major/program they wanted to because once the spots filled up that was it. So, it's not like it's a unique concept. I don't know why some places like CA, from what I hear, even bother having those courses. They're way oversaturated.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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I think the field you may be referring to is Nursing. Nurses are in demand and the pay is very good. Although hundreds of people apply each year, they are put on a waiting list to get into the program. Why, you ask? It is not because there are too many nurses and not enough jobs (as you are saying for teaching). The reason for the waiting list is because there are not enough Nurse Education Teachers. Therefore, there are less classes available and thus causing a waiting list. Maybe you weren't referring to Nursing but, this concept is the same for other majors. Not enough teachers = not enough classes available = a waiting list. These majors also require you to have an extremely high GPA in order to get into their program. Whereas education majors (at least in my state) can pretty much have any GPA and still become certified.

So to compare the Education Majors to other wait listed ones is not plausible.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:30 PM
 
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I agree. That's why I think there should be a reform of some sort. There just seems to something wrong, at least in my opinion, in allowing someone to spend money, and time, in a lost cause. It seems greedy. It's almost like the schools want to make double on edu majors, for the edu and fopr whatever they pursue after.


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Old 08-20-2012, 03:18 PM
 
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I think there are and have always been teaching jobs BUT you have to be willing to go where the jobs are. I don't know of too many fields these days that are actively looking for people. I know too many college grads who are unemployed and are not education graduates.

I live in NC and there are still jobs open in my county and surrounding counties. Some will be filled with subs for part or the whole year. Sad when there are so many who want a job, but as I said you have to be willing to go where the jobs are.

I graduated college in 1982 and couldn't get a job. I was a family friend of the superintendent and couldn't get a job. My DH, BF at the time, drove with me several hours to different job fairs. At that time there were jobs in TX, but we were talking marriage. We moved and went to an even tighter market area. I left teaching for a few years and did something out of education. I finally went back to teaching when my youngest was 2 1/2.

When we move to NC I had 2 offers and another P tracking me down in a parking lot and telling me the job was mine without even an interview. Things have tightened up here and jobs are not plentiful, but there ARE jobs.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:22 PM
 
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Education majors are a cash cow for colleges and universities. Without fail every single college or university I have attended the department of education was in the oldest building in the most need of repair.

While earning my masters degree in education I was assessed an $100.00/term fee for technology. When I questioned this as the school of education did not have a computer lab or any technology to speak of I was told the money was going into a fund to build a computer lab. Two years later when I graduated it was still not built.

Several years later when I earned my reading specialist cert at a different university the library was clear across the campus. I used to take my bike to class and ride it to the library. Why would the library be clear across campus? Why to make room for the sports fields.

The current glut of teachers is why a friend of mine says that education degrees should come with money back guarantee; if you can't find a job in a reasonable time then you don't have to pay back your loans and/or you can earn another degree at no cost to you.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:38 PM
 
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I agree with you, but nothing is going to change until people stand up to the college's. One of my friend's is having a baby. By the time her baby is 18, college will cost 130k without books for an instate school. She did one of those 529 things and it comes with a college cost calculator. That's crazy. I would NEVER spend that much to send my kids, if I had any, to college. I'd rather just buy them a house or help them start a business. We agree, some of us by being quiet, to these things. I'll never forget I was finishing my prereqs. One my professors was talking about some things, shady things, going on. He said 'If this were any other country, students would be picketing and shooting the Dean". Not that, I agree with his methods. You know, I see these things and it doesn't surprised me we don't have a middle class any more.

To answer the poster above subman, I don't think there's enough jobs to cover everyone who has teaching cert who needs one. Thousands of people are applying for one job. One little rural school in where ever isn't cutting it. Furthermore, if teachers are exspected to move for work, a teaching license should be universial. I refuse to pay money to get a cert in a state to be in the same boat.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:09 PM
 
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Is this a good time to be anything? What's the right major now?
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:37 PM
 
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I think a good major right now is something in the medical field or technology. University professors don't want to be out of a job by telling students there are no teaching jobs.

Being what I love is giving me a headache. I still love teaching, but like many of you, I cannot find a job. I believe universities have something to do with it, the economy, and other factors. I live in L.A. Cal. and it is even difficult to land a job in areas that are considered "bad".

Many new charter schools are taking advantage of the situation and paying less because they know teachers will take a job with very low pay. Very few Districts are hiring new teachers in their District. When District jobs open they usually go to someone they already know.

Hang in there and do your best to ride the wave.

Good luck to all.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:01 AM
 
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cdksn, I think agood deal of other majors are better soley because you have more wiggly room. If you're a teacher, you're stuck with teaching. If you don't get experience, you can't do things other teachers can like say work for scholastic or do things invovling textbooks/curriculum. I know many people who were able to get jobs by going either into a subset of their major or a field that wasn't their major, but their major were close enough or their learned skills need from their major. At least with other majors you can major or minor in something completely different. Where I went to school, you could only major in a humanity.


The charter schools are taking advantage. Daycares are horrible, too. They pay about min wage.
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Gee thanks...
Old 08-21-2012, 11:45 AM
 
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As a student teacher graduating in the fall, I try not to read stuff like this because what are the options for me at this point?

My professors are honest with us about the state of the economy. It's hard everywhere, even in the medical fields. I know out of work nurses and other medical personnel. Newly graduated nurses are having a hard time finding work since they are expensive for the hospital to hire and things are very stressful in that field as well.

In my city there are jobs. There aren't as many jobs as there used to be but people find work. You might need to drive an hour or work in an area you didn't want to or whatever, but jobs are available. Last year several of my friends didn't have contracts renewed, this year they all have jobs.

Obviously things are different everywhere, but right now, jobs are scarce for everyone. I can't think of any "sure thing" career choice out there right now. And I can't think of anything I'd be interested in sitting in a 3 hour lecture about, let alone getting a whole major about.

So maybe us Ed. Majors are stupid, as you say, but I'm going to try anyway. If I don't find a job, I don't. I'll work at the mall I guess. But if I don't go for the only thing I've ever wanted to do and major in... what? ... I'll always wonder.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:54 PM
 
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The local community college has an associate degree program for computer networking that they say graduates will earn 40-60K/pr year. Pretty good for an associates degree when I was earning that amount with a graduate degree.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:32 AM
 
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Spicy, I think you're asking that too late. By the time you entered your major, if not before then, you knew education was becoming a dead end career wise. I think that's where you and others responding are different. The majority of us entered edu major before the market went sour. I remember my supervisor for st telling me if I had just graduated a year earlier, I would have had a job. We keep in touch. She's told me she's very surprised at the way things are going, because our state used to have a bigger edu bugdet, and doesn't think things will turn around any time soon. I hope you get the jobs you claim are in your area. A lot can change in a semester. If you don't get a job, I think you'll understand our side better.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:05 PM
 
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I've been following this and hesitating about whether I should say something, but I did want to reply to SpicyPeanut because when I was in the same position I would not have felt very good about reading this either.

First of all, I don't think you can say that anyone is stupid for picking education as a major. For many, teaching is their passion and they should go for it. If I was not absolutely sure it was what I wanted to do, then maybe a different major might be a better bet but if it is something that you really feel drawn to, I don't think you should give up on it. I don't see it as the responsibility of universities to turn people away. Everyone has to do their own research and then make an informed decision that is right for themselves. If colleges started limiting who was allowed into education programs, all that would happen is that the teachers who are graduating would be the best of the best and it would be even tougher competition. At this point it seems like a lot of people aren't getting jobs but you also have to remember that not every person that graduates would be a good teacher.

Second, people do get jobs. I got a job in the fall after graduating in the spring. Many of my friends have gotten jobs. I also experienced several rejections before I got my position. I was lucky to get a job in the city where I live but many of my friends have had to move several hours away to rural areas. One of my friends has just moved into a hospital suite that was renovated into an apartment, but at least she has a full time job and is getting experience. If you're young and don't have a family to worry about, then this can be a very valid option. Also, unlike many other professions where if you don't get a job in your field of study you're out of luck, in teaching you can still sub. Here, sub pay is around $160 per day, which isn't bad at all, although I know this tends to vary depending where you are.

I am heading into my second year of teaching and I could not be happier. I was setting up my classroom this afternoon and as I was looking around, I had the thought that I truly can't imagine doing anything else. I come to work every day eager to get started, and I leave with a smile. I don't want people out there to give up hope. If this is what you are meant to do, it will happen eventually. Not everyone's path is the same but sometimes you have to have patience and believe that the right fit will come along.
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:39 AM
 
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Stupid might be a touch rude, but it's true. I remember seeing a movie. I can't remember what the name of it was. The main character when to a mental hospital. The doctor said "The difference between a crazy person and a regular person is the crazy person will keep doing the same thing and exspect a different result". So, in a sense, it crazy to see, our hear of, thousands of people applying for a job in a field and decide "I want a job doing that!". So, I don't feel bad using the word stupid. If you don't land a job, you knew what the situation was getting into it. Many of us did not before. Now, it's pretty clear.


A lot of your reply makes no sense. Lots of people have passions that can't make money/a job out of. Ever see American Idol? Just because something is your calling doesn't mean you can have a job doing it. Aren't we supposed to teach our students to have back up plans and not put all your eggs in one basket? Furthermore, there is a high demand for teaching jobs. Limiting the number of people entering the majors only makes sense. You even said yourself, there are people graduating who would never be good teacher.Programs should weed this people out. Very few people fail student teaching, even if they're horrible. Let's say teachers were in demand. How is that fair to the students? Having a subpar teacher, because we should let any idiot who wants to teach become a teacher. I don't have children, but if I did I wouldn't want them with a teacher like that.

I have explained why moving isn't such a great option. Some people aren't able to. Also, it's expensive to get your cert in another state. Somewhere in the 250-300 range, including finger printing.


I think it's easy for you to not understand this thread. You've had a cake walk. Just remember you are not tenured yet and I'm sure you are one of the newest at your school. So, if you ever get fired or RIFed, I would wonder how you would feel to move or to try to land a job in this market. Then again, you have no idea how low some subs are paid. So, you can sub and make a livable wage. Thus, you can continue to sit on your high horse. I know your type. You think you got a job, because you're special and we, the people of this section, don't have them because we're lazy. We're "lazy", because we can't pick up and afford to move to nowhere USA where there's a teaching job in a school 20 miles away from civilzation. I believe in fate and other things. You know what? There's fate and callings and there's dead ends. I know there are some people on here who have been looking, and subbing, 4-5 years. To me, that's a dead end. Those people should look for work in another field.
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To clarify...
Old 08-23-2012, 07:11 AM
 
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No, I had no clue about what would happen as I started this major many years ago and I had to drop out of school for a while and am now a returning student. The market wasn't sour back then. Things were great and teaching was one of those "recession proof" jobs at the time.

Why return to education? Because I've already spent too many years, money, effort etc. to not give this a fair shot. Do I have a back up plan, sure do. Do I get the issues out there? Yup, I'm not a 20 year old kid believing a fairy tale. I know that things basically suck right now. They suck for just about everyone and I know lots of people who are out of work or in crappy jobs unrelated to their field from various majors.

I plan to apply to any job I'm qualified for when the time comes. If it's teaching, awesome, if it's not... oh well. Moving isn't an option for me as I own my home, my husband has a job here and we have a child to worry about. My husband, by the way, is also in a formerly "secure" career which now he has to deal with threats of lay offs and added stress and pay cuts on a regular basis completely unrelated to education.

I understand where you are coming from, really. But no one likes being called stupid. Especially when I'm not. This decision to finish my Ed. degree was not one made lightly. I'm aware of the risks, but like I said, there's nothing else I'd rather do. I rather try and fail and end up back in an office job than to just give up with 12 credits to go and nothing to show for it.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:05 AM
 
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I'm not sure what I said that warranted an attack on my character. I was simply trying to be encouraging. Since this is a teacher forum, it can be assumed that the people posting are either graduated from a teacher education program, or in the midst of one, so at this point I don't see the purpose of belittling others for their choices. What's done is done. If someone decides it's not worth it and chooses another field, then good for them. Likewise, if someone wants to give it a shot at trying to get a teaching job, then I would be supportive. I went into student teaching without a lot of confidence, but I was lucky to have extremely supportive and encouraging people around me. Before I got my job, I was happy to hear stories of others who got jobs because it gave me a little spark of hope that maybe there was something out there for me.

You have made a lot of assumptions about me and my "type". I will readily admit that I had a fairly easy time finding a job. I am extremely grateful each and every day and I know that I could just as easily be in a different position. I don't think it's because I'm special. I happened to get VERY lucky and was in the right place at the right time. I worked hard before, and I'm working hard now but I also know that there are a ton of good teachers out there who have worked hard and are struggling. I don't know where I implied that they are lazy. Many of my friends and family members are in this position and I certainly don't think they are lazy, nor are the people on here. I see people posting on here every day about visiting schools, calling principals, going on multiple interviews, etc. I don't begin to imagine that it's easy. I have also seen the excitement from the people who did manage to get jobs. For them, it was worth it. Each person's experience is unique and should be respected. Whether people decide to leave the field or stick with it, I don't see anything wrong with sending a little encouragement their way.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:22 PM
 
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Your original post was very condescending. You make it seems like it's so easy, effortless, and cheap to just open and move to another state. It's very clear you don't understand what's going on with unemployed teacher. As the famous saying goes "it's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it". Perhaps, you should only reply to posts where people have jobs,
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Generation Y Wonders Why They Are Broke
Old 08-24-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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You tell em' girl. If we're going to be educated and broke, then we're all going to be educated and broke together! Do you know what Generation Y stands for? Y are we all smarter than parents but broker than our grandparents? The American dream in the 21st century is to just get a job and move out your folk's basement, never mind owning anything. We've made it ya'll! We're all educated, we're all degreed and smart, but was too gullible to see that in the grand scheme of things, everyone just can't be at the top. And the people at the top did exactly what they had to do make sure that the majority of us get nowehere near their 1%. It's just that simple.

I'm too embarresed to disclose how much money I've invested in degrees, and I haven't been able to secure a decent job, save a litany of substitute teaching and retail jobs, since undergrad. I've invested $30,000 in a Masters in Ed. And so, at this point, I dare someone to tell me what else I need to be doing. The money is spent and I made the mistake of attending a university that admits appplicants into a Masters degree program for "career changeers" interested in teaching before passing their entrance exams. Now, I group of us are stuck in the program and can't graduate.

The whole system, including the university system, is a corrupt and greedy system. The goal is to take advantage of unsuspecting students and grad students, get them into debt, then promise them nothing but hopes and dreams. It's a scam. And I was just telling someone that it's going to take all of us to become outraged to the brink of insanity to change things not only for us, but also future letters, like Zs. Who will be put to sleep Zzzzz...by the time America has its way with them. All of us got PLAYED.
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An interesting discussion.
Old 08-24-2012, 10:10 AM
 
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I read the posts...Many of you had interesting points...

Many years ago, I entered social studies credential program. That was after spending one year in law school.

Did I do a thorough analysis of job prospects back then? No. I was feeling bad about not finishing law school. I just wanted to continue my postgraduate education somewhere and get a "middle-class" job. I liked social studies...So that was the end of discussion.
Nobody from the counseling department told me about job prospects...OK, I never asked about that...

I don't know if I should get annoyed with college letting more people graduate with credentials...People have decided to go into the program...They should get their wish...If they don't end up with teaching jobs, they have to accept consequences...

I think that it would be a good idea for someone to thoroughly investigate job prospects before entering any postgraduate program...In my case, I didn't do a good job of investigating.

I agree that there simply are not enough teaching jobs for people with credentials...
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:33 AM
 
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Guide, I really agree with everything you've said. You know what is is? Baby boomers and Gen X are too concerned with holding onto jobs until they DIE. Seriously, I know a teacher who literally sits on her a$$ all day and does nothing. She's a specials teacher who has tenure and travels. Every time I sub at her school, she finds a reason to either totally skip my prep or switch it to when she would like to take it. I stop playing "ball" with her and now she just stops coming when she knows I'm covering a class. She knows everything, because she's always in the main office looking at things she's not supposed to because she does nothing. Anyway, she's at both the age and time put into to retire. She refuses to. She also has a husband that works. What a drain on the system, people like that should be forced to retire. She's making an insane amount of money and there's no way to get rid of her. On top of that, she doesn't do any work.

To answer's long's question, the professors as told by their schools probably tell students some bs that there will be mass retirements. I know a lot of student teachers believe that. I've had contact with them through subbing. I know a lot of nonteaching people, who are not related to teachers, believe there will be mass retirements and there will soon be a teacher's shortage. People, I'm not sure if it's the school of the media, are making it seem like teaching is a hot ticket.

To answer a question you both asked, people don't band together because they're selfish. If you have a job, in all fields, eff everyone else. If you don't have a job, you just care about securing a job for you. Americans are very selfish. On top of that, we have a bad idea about retirement. A job isn't a job until you die at your desk. A job is your jobs for a set number of year's. Save for retirement and let someone else have a piece of the pie.
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Couldn't Agree More
Old 08-26-2012, 11:42 AM
 
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You're right about retirees who refuse to retire, but the irony is, because so many recent and not-so-recent graduates won't get decent jobs until far into the future, most won't have the luxury of retiring either. In order to pay off so much college debt, most of us will need to work well past what most would consider "retirement age" (if there's such an age anymore). Not to turn this discussion into a pity party, but since graduating from college, I've been wanting to figure out just what has happened to America. Why are so many people not securing jobs in nearly every industry? I've narrowed it down to a list of dramatic changes that have occured in the world, right under our noses, in a span of 20 years or more.

1) Technology- It's cheaper to hire a machine to do it than to pay a salary plus benefits.

2) Globalization- Why pay Americans when you can pay just about anyone else in the world to do the same job for a lot less?

3) Borrow Yourself Into A Hole and Get It On Credit- Wall Street has a shopping spree on borrowed money while Main Street pays the tab in the form of lost of jobs, lost homes, and lost hopes and dreams.

4) Extended Life Expectancy - People are living a lot longer, and retiring at 50 is now an archaic luxury.

5) Sea of Degrees- So many people have been convinced that a college degree is a prerequisite for success. And now, every job market is flooded with people with similar qualfications and job expectations, and there are simply not enough jobs that will meet everyone's expectation.

Interestingly enough, instead of endlessly pushing high school students to pursue college degrees to get good jobs, this is the first time in history when people are thinking twice about pursuing a college education, because getting a good job because of it, is just not guaranteed.
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Don't Be So Hard On Yourself
Old 08-26-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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Longtimesub, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. No one saw this mess coming, certainly not a high-school kid who was convinced by college recruiters, that the "way to the American dream is through the doors of a college or university". We all did what we thought was the right thing to do by getting an education in the fields that appealed to us and made sense to us at the time.

Unless parents decide to stick their kids in front of computer to receive "online schooling" or some advanced form of homeschooling, which just might become a frightening reality, I think education/teaching is one of the industries that will certainly bounce back from this recession rather quickly, because people value education. And most parents will want their children to be educated, at least at the elementary, middle, and high school levels, by someone they feel has been trained to teach and knows what they're doing.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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I really don't know what's worse. The teachers who refuse to retire or the teachers who retire and sub. The best is every retired teacher in the district I sub in is a school sub. So, they're guarteened 180 days of work on top of their pension and state provided benefits. The best is they either act clueless or like they're some guest star on a soap opera or some late night show. There's one retired teacher who I try to avoid at all costs. She demands all type of things from free food to rides home. The kids literally act like zoo animals when she's there, because she sits there and sometimes falls asleep. She always says in the teacher lounge, "I had a bad today" and after some prompting replies "I was never good at classroom management".

It annoys, me because one they have time in, they have great benefits and pension. Teaching, if you're lucky to never get RIFed and stay in the field, is one of those careers where you don't have to save for retirement. I know some of the older teachers who have no reason to stay. They hate their job/the students, they will even say so infront of the p, and have no debt. These teachers I know who refuse to retire are no in their 50s. They're all 61 and up. Soon, they will qualify for social security. I really think it's just greed.

If I were a teacher, I'd retire after the min time needed. I've never been a selfish person. Clearly, it doesn't pay to not be greedy.


America is turning into a real sad place. I wouldn't be surprised if when I die, in many decades to come if nothing sudden or unfortunate happens, if America is a third world country. Our currency is basically worthless from a global standpoint. We could be the next Greece.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:27 PM
 
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In my state I cannot collect any social security from my husband. Any social security I have Earned will be offset. So, I do feel sorry for people who paid into social security before they became a teacher and now cannot collect on it when they retire beIcause of the Social Security Offset Law. But if I was a retired police, Sherrif or fire dept I could collect both.
I also pay out of my pay check 8% towards retirement police offi ers do not
I do respect their life threatening situation just pointing out differences in pensions. I will have taught 39 years when I retire next year.
I have been out for 9 days and was told by the sub that the papers are rubber banded on my desk. Ok. 9'days - 5 classes = 45 stacks of papers waiting for me to correct - so-I asked the sub
if he could record two grades a week pick any two days. One assignment the parent letter that was went home on day one.
Do you think I asked for too much
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:54 PM
 
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I'm really crying a river that you can't collect ss, but have a big cushy pension when you hit the right time and your husand's ss/pension. My no job security, no benefits, sorry self really feels for YOU. XP


I think you're asking for too much, because you get paid probably three times what that sub makes, counting all your years, and you get benefits. All those nine days off, you got paid. Subs don't get paid if they're sick. So, you can grade your own work.
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Wow are you bitter
Old 08-26-2012, 09:24 PM
 
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Gee, I am sorry you feel that way. I have had two jobs teaching during the day and working a department store at night. No, it is not a cushy pension.I feel that if I have worked and paid into Social Securify I should be able to receive the same payment as anyone else. Oh yes, by the way I have donated days to many sick colleagues who would not have had any medical benefits if we had not volunteered our sick days .I do feel sorry for your situation. My heart does feel for the teachers who cannot jobs. I won't lower myself and make an unkind remark. By the way I am helping my sub get his 100 days so he can get health benafirs for next year.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:59 PM
 
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Longtimesub, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. No one saw this mess coming, certainly not a high-school kid who was convinced by college recruiters, that the "way to the American dream is through the doors of a college or university". We all did what we thought was the right thing to do by getting an education in the fields that appealed to us and made sense to us at the time.

_____________________________

There are just too many people in my situation...

I have been thinking that working in the libraries as a librarian would be something that I might find interesting...However, I am afraid to spend money trying to get the MA in library science. I am thinking that it will be very difficult to find a job as a librarian...I am thinking back to how I couldn't find a social studies teaching job...

One of my friends is working as an engineer...My another friend is a pharmacist...My third friend is an RN...

I have never been a "science" guy...I guess I am who am...I cannot just be like my friends...
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:23 AM
 
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There are no guarantees in life. You just have to make the most of what you are given.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:28 AM
 
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Longtime,
Don't become a librarian. It's basically the same as a teacher. You need connections, too many applications for one job, and you'll probably end up moving.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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Scottie, I would like to know what your intentions are. You seem to want us to think you have it to so hard. No one said, at least here, teaching was an easy job or anything. We're talking about the struggles we have as unemployed teachers. You come here complainning your sub won't grade papers. Then, when I tell you how entitled you sound (that is not in the subs duties to grade papers), you come in and say you have to work a night job. Do you really feel you are worse off than someone who is unemployed or just a sub?
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Ads in the newspapers.
Old 08-27-2012, 08:41 AM
 
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I'm too embarresed to disclose how much money I've invested in degrees, and I haven't been able to secure a decent job, save a litany of substitute teaching and retail jobs, since undergrad. I've invested $30,000 in a Masters in Ed. And so, at this point, I dare someone to tell me what else I need to be doing. The money is spent and I made the mistake of attending a university that admits appplicants into a Masters degree program for "career changeers" interested in teaching before passing their entrance exams. Now, I group of us are stuck in the program and can't graduate.

_______________________________ ______________

People often say "Go back to school and learn something new"...I have done that twice and have really nothing to show...(Once for credential and another time for accounting.)

I have seen ads in the Sunday classified section from some university...They encourage "career changers" to enroll in the credential program...You read that ad and you get the impression that you will get the job immediately after finishing the program...I guess we should not believe everything we read...
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No I'll will
Old 08-27-2012, 04:10 PM
 
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I have no ill intention.I just did not like your comment that veteran teachers should retire because we owe it to you. I know many teachers who have been RIFFED - and some of them have been with the district since 2003. I do feel their pain and I support voting thru the union for furlough days in order to keep our newer teachers.Your comment about old teachers needing to retire because they had taught too many years was a bit much. As if we owe it to younger teachers to retire. One day you will be a veteran teacher and see how you feel when you hear that veteran teachers should retire because they have X amount of years.Y Climb any corporate ladder and everyone is affected by seniority and job openings .Yes, there are some veteran teachers who are not as excited about teaching as they once were and should retire however,I know many veteran teachers who are more effective than some of the newer teachers. The veteran teachers are not racing out the doYor at 3:00 and we take the newer teachers under our wing and provide lesson plans ready to go and are very nurturing to younger, newer teachers. And yes, older teachers learn from newer teachers too. It is a two way street As for the sub not grading well after nine days you need two grades a week. I have not been at school for 9 days. So, if you are subbing for 9 days and you know you will be there you would not grade a paper? There is a 55 min conference every day with nothing for the sub to do. I was venting because I could see myself returning from 9 days with 5 classes times 30 kids = 150 times 9 days = about 1350 papers to review. And yes I will review each student's work. As for having a second job- yes I did do that my first couple of years as a new teacher just to make ends meet. I did envy the older teachers at the top, but I never felt they "should retire" so that I could have a job. I definitely do not feel that I am " worse off" I am just letting you know that we all have to pay our dues.

Last edited by scottiestir; 08-27-2012 at 04:12 PM.. Reason: No ill will in heading -I cannot fix typo. Auto correct
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:46 AM
 
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Personally, I don't grade papers, because I don't feel I get paid enough and it's not in the sub job where I work.

I think teachers at the top who have a certain salary and age/put in should retire. I don't know about where you live, but where I live they get a very big salary. So, they'd be getting GOOD money to stay home.
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Accountability and Reality
Old 08-28-2012, 11:53 AM
 
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Longtimesub, I really appreciate your sentiments and I just want to say that I don't blame anyone else for my situation. Regardless of the state of the job market, I made the decision to return to school for a Master's degree in Teaching. However, since graduating from college with a degree in Business Admin., I've also had to come to grips with the fact that in the 21st century, employers don't have as much time as they used to, to train new hires and they don't want to train new people either. Your first day on the job, employers want you to be able to hit the ground running with little or no handholding. That's why internships are so very important these days. And because there is so much competition in the job market, it's an employers market and they can defer to the more experienced job applicants if that's what they choose to do. After graduating from school, I had no idea the job market was this way.

As far as Master's degree teaching programs for career changers are concerned, I still strongly support these programs and I believe they are indeed necessary. However, I would simply urge anyone reading this who might be interested in enrolling in such a program to make sure that he or she PASSES the teacher certification exams (The Praxis, for example) before you get accepted into the program. Otherwise, you won't be able to get out of the program if you cannot pass it, even after spending thousands of dollars on courses and internships. I happen to live in state with very high teaching standards. Although I haven't yet passed the certification exam, my exam score is actually very high, and had I lived anywhere else in this country, I would've been teaching by now. It's absolutely ridiculous how teaching qualifications vastly differ from state to state.

In one state, you can barely write a complete sentence and get a license to teach. In another state, you need to able to write a dissertation, save the planet, become an astronaunt, and cure world hunger to teach Kindergarten. It's absolutely ABSURD. I live in the latter state. It has been a NIGHTMARE.

And so, final word of caution: Please make sure that you thoroughly read and fully understand all of the degree program's requirements to graduate before you apply to graduate school.
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I Wouldn't Take It Personally
Old 08-28-2012, 12:27 PM
 
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Scottiestir, I wouldn't take the comments personally. Most of us here are just frustrated, and when there's a deficit in anything, it's human nature to want to know the reason for the scarcity. For instance, whenever there's a shortage of jobs, the pattern has been to target foreigners, blame the government, blame the system, blame big business, etc. Now, some of us are coming for the retirees and prospective rehires to explain job shortages.

The truth is, it might just be a combination of all these events of which none of us have control. Present circumstances might be the outcome of a string of decisions and society's evolution. I saw a video of one guy on youtbe blaming the shortage of jobs on the advancement of technology. He's convinced that people will need to start hiring themselves to work, specifically, starting their own businesses because technology and outsourcing has left countless Americans without jobs. And of course, at the end of video, he wanted money to continue on and show viewers how we can establish a small startup. Since he graduated from college, he's been selling his ideas, because alas, he wasn't able to find work after college either. He flat out told viewers that's how he got the idea to do these videos, and he's been making youtube videos to earn money. I didn't buy any of what he was offering (he was offering a package of videos on how to start a business), but I think that he was onto something:

Hire Yourself! Now is the time for people stop relying on others to see the value in their talents, and using those talents to make someone else's dreams come true. What about our dreams? Now it's time for us (the masses) to invest in ourselves and have faith in our own talents and abilities. My sister is great at baking. She didn't find a job after graduating from a state university either, and so she started a vegan baked goods business. It just doesn't make sense for any of us to target and fight amongst each other for wanting to still work or for not finding work at all. We've already seen what a strain pitting the Haves against the Have Nots has done to America. Now it's time for us to come up with solutions that will generate and maintain positive results for everybody. Hopefully, things will change and change soon.

Last edited by GuideTheYouth; 08-28-2012 at 12:44 PM..
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Guide, it's very hard to start your own business without money or a loan. Wonder why that guy was selling stuff on YT? He was broke. That's why if i ever have a child, I won't save for college. It's a waste. I'll either save money and help them start a business or buy/put a down payment on a home.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:44 AM
 
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It's funny, when people are kids, they don't think about roadblocks to success. They just start their Lemonade Stand or makeshift fundraiser to get the job done and get the money needed to serve whatever purpose is important to them at the time. It makes you wonder, what ever happens to our dreams and insatiable drive to succeed at whatever costs when we become adults?

As far as the recent-grad youtube seller, he's like the kid with the Lemonade Stand. He's doing whatever he can think of doing to survive. Some money for doing something is better than having no money at all. Ultimately, I think he already has a set of pre-recorded videos on how to establish small online business start ups and was using Youtube, which is basically a free advertising platform, to market these videos to viewers.

And I can't totally agree with your comment about college. I don't think saving for college is waste. I think it's a waste to go to college and you don't even know why you're there. That's a waste. It's not enough to just go to college to impress others. If you're going to invest thousands into any endeavor, treat it like a business and know what you're doing. Know yourself well. Know the reasons why you want to attend college and if attending college is even necessary to obtain the career you want. People just ship their kids off to college and hope their kids know what they're doing and hope someone gives them a break after they graduate. I had to learn the hard way that it doesn't work that way. I'm learning that a fulfilling career involves knowing exactly what you want to do, hard work, patience, extensive planning, networking, and fortunate opportunities.

If I ever have kids and they express an interest in attending college, the first thing I'm asking for is a detailed written plan of action, which will include short-term and long-terms goals. Many years ago when Judge Judy first aired on television, I read one of Judge Judy Sheindlin's books. It's been so long ago since I read it, but I think it was Don't Pee On My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining. In the book Sheindlin tells readers that the first thing she and her husband did when their kids graduated from college was move out of their huge, beautiful home to a very small place just for the two of them, because they wanted to make sure their kids knew they couldn't return to the nest. I thought that was an interesting move, but considering today's economy, there woud a lot of homeless recent graduates had all parents followed the Sheinlin's lead. But I respect these parents for getting a strong point across to their kids: You're Out The Nest - Take Control and Responsibility for Your Own Life.
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Perspective
Old 08-30-2012, 08:15 AM
 
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I can see there is a lot of frustration and bitterness with teachers in all situations. I'm going to offer the perspective of someone who DID retire in part to give a job to a RFD teacher. It was a huge sacrifice, but I know there is life outside of teaching.

I recently retired with very few regrets. I was one of those teachers with great data and a strong background and use of technoloogy, so I stayed current. I wasn't burned out, but saw that I didn't want to continue dedicating so much of my life to a career that was becoming more demanding, less satisfying and ultimately making me sacrifice my health and wellness. I see that is the same with the majority of teachers.

Believe it or not, getting a job was VERY difficult 35 years ago when I first started and in union states, it has become just a bit harder. My daughter had to start her teaching career at a charter school (yuk!) and then moved to a different state where it is easy to get a teaching job because the turnover is so high and jobs so horrible.

Really, there are so many more jobs in education as compared to 35 years ago with lots of specialists popping up in recent years. Sadly, our best and brightest typically do not choose education as a career and that leads to lower standards. Most of you are too young to understand this, but career options were limited for women just 30-40 years ago and nursing and education were where the best and brightest young women went. Today, if my daughter wanted to go into teaching, I would not assist her with the funding as she would have been better served going into something that didn't consume her life, mental and physical health and safety.

There seems to be an inherent lack of respect for career decisions that some experienced teachers make. Some seem to think teachers should retire when they hit 50 mostly to give the job to someone new and just starting out. To be honest, that is just arrogant. Schools need a balance of experience levels. I shudder when I read a new teacher on these boards asking how to begin to teach reading. I also shudder when I hear about some of my most INEFFECTIVE peers being hired to teach at the local education colleges. The profession has become way too political and liberal and it starts at the university level.

I do understand the frustration many of you have experienced in your job search. I had about seven different teaching jobs in my life because of interstate moving for my husband's job and that wrecked havoc in my career leaving me with less retirement than I really have earned. I also paid 10 years into SS but won't see most of that because of the government's punitive actions against unions about 40 years ago. I could have stayed home all my life and then collected on my husband's SS, but as a teacher I loose all rights to that benefit. So many of you younger ones will be shocked when you learn the details of pensions and retirement!
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:20 AM
 
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I'm not really sure where you're going with these latest posts, Guide. You had interesting things to say and now it just seems to be spirialing off topic. I don't think anyone who goes to school to become a teacher is going to impress anyone. Teachers have always, as far as I know in America, been looked down upon and now are getting bashed. It's not like going to say become a doctor or lawyer. I think the people who are becoming teachers have a goal. They just don't have a plan. I also think I sense sour grapes from you because you can't pass your cert exam. We know teaching a is a dead end at this point in time. I don't really know what else there is to say about. Talking about other careers isn't going to help, either. Every person has to do what's best for them. I've start to apply for corporate jobs. I am tired of subbing and tired of waiting to be choosen. Know, in my heart, I will not be choosen over someone who knows someone, even if I am better.

About getting help from parents and family, I'm on the fence. As an adult, you should be on your own two feet. If parents and family aren't helping when there's a bump in the road, then these people are going to end up on welfare and food stamps. So, now I have to help a stranger when their family feels no responsbility?
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:13 AM
 
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It's nice to see someone who was in the teaching world is kind and generous.

Speaking of wellness, I heard some where that teaching is the highest field for antidepressant use.

I understand some areas have always been hard to land jobs in. I've addressed that before. My beef, if you will, is that if you know only a small number of teachers are going to be needed in your area/state, then college should not be allowed to churning out hundred of new teachers per year. Thankfully, things have come a long for women. I also would not advise anyone to go into a teaching career.

I don't know where the age of 50 was given as the retire forever age. I know Guide said 50, but I never did. I feel once a teacher reaches social security age, they should retire. What is that? 65?
That is a good age to retire. I'm just saying, where I live, teachers get good pensions. So, after a certain, point it is being greedy. Any job, every field, is not a job until you come in one day and die at your desk. You're supposed to save for retirement. I know some of you are gripping about SS, but SS was initially made for people who really need it. You don't need SS if you have a pension. SS will be gone very soon anyway.

Teaching it seems has always been political. I've notice the worst and laziest teachers are usually the ones signing up, and getting!, student teachers who in turn learn nothing.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:10 AM
 
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I've read what you had to say and I just want to thank you for joining the discussion and sharing your perspective. It was insightful. However, I think it's very unfortunate that you've left the teaching profession with what seems to be a terribly dismal and negative perception of the profession. I think each person's perception of teaching, or any subject for that matter, is mostly based on their experiences. Talking with another veteran teacher, you're likely to hear a completely different view of their teaching experiences. I can't relate to the lowly perceptions of teaching that I read at the tailend of this discussion. I think very highly of teaching. It is an organic spiritual work for both the student and the teacher, and only the most interesting, intelligent, creative, and unique people can truly be successful at the job of teaching. Unlike being a lawyer or doctor, there is no systematic way of teaching, guiding, and molding the lives other people. Each moment and each interaction with each student is very personal, requiring an incredible amount of intelligence, energy, imagination, and yes, a certain degree of insanity. Yes, you need to be crazy and completely out of your mind to perform as a teacher. Teaching is a performance, it's an art form, and a sacred science. I've been teaching and relating to students of varying ages and backgrounds for over 10 years so far and counting. I can tell you that if this is not you, then I'd advise anyone else reading to do something else. I mean - of all the people in the world, you, the teacher, should be thinking very highly of what you're doing in that classroom. If you don't, then you have no business being there.

All jobs and careers, even lawyers and doctors, must learn what they know from a teacher who guided them towards maximizing their unqiue potential.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:37 AM
 
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I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I just want to make it clear that I would never have the audacity to suggest retirement to anyone of any age. However, because America is suffering from debilitating job losses and job scarcity, I do understand the frustration felt by recent and not-so-recent graduates with veteran workers who seem to never want to leave their jobs and create openings for younger generations desparately needing work. Through the years, I've tried entering other industries, including the private and non-profit industry. People who lack less than 5-10 years of work experience are being completely shut out of today's job market it seems. And no, I dont think that this a fair at all. One of my closest family members has retired from the federal government after 40 years of dedicated service, and she doesn't even think it's fair for people to be treated this way by hiring screeners and employers in every industry. It's almost as though unemployed graduates don't exist! So we don't have a resume that's 5 pages long, just what are we supposed to do? Live on the streets with our degrees to keep us warm while others can purchase "luxuries" like say, a HOME to live in and a pot to piss in????? It's just not fair. But whether a teacher is 50 or 550, I never suggested to anyone in this discussion that he or she should retire from the teaching profession.The fact is, people are living a lot longer, and ultimately it's up to the individual to decide for how long they'd like to work.

The other topics that I discussed were in response to others who were talking about different topics all related to either teaching OR limited job prospects, which is now a reality for anyone in any profession.

Last edited by GuideTheYouth; 09-03-2012 at 12:33 PM..
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:29 PM
 
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Sickoffern's---you are extremely negative! I agree that there are not too many jobs in teaching, or any field right now. I also agree that in many places it's political or who you know or which short dress you wear. I went through all of that when I graduated with my degree in teacher 30 years ago. Connie had many good points to say about teaching jobs back then. It's no different now, but THERE ARE JOBS IF YOU CAN RELOCATE. I know that's not ideal for everyone, but it's an option for many and yet they refuse. Yup it's going to cost you money to get your license in another state, but it would for a lawyer or a dr. too. Part of the field you CHOSE to go to school for.

As for teachers being selfish---you are dead wrong!!! I know more and more teachers who are giving of their time and life to helping others. That doesn't sound selfish to me. I totally disagree that they should retire as soon as they hit their 30 years. Why? They are in a job they enjoy and it certainly was not a super profitable position. We all know teachers don't teach for the money! On another note about not being selfish---I actively have posted about jobs being available in my state on here and other sites. Yup, me being selfish again looking for a teacher who is willing to move to my state and fill a position! Gosh I'll have to work on that!

Many times teachers retire and are ASKED to come back because there are open positions and they would rather fill the spot with a retiree than an uncertified sub. Depends, again, where you live, but we do not have many certified subs in my state.

Maybe if you changed your attitude about things when you sub you would have a better chance of getting a job. I went over and above every day I subbed and volunteered! That's what caught the eye of the principals I have worked for. They like that I gave 110% or more when I was in their school. Grading papers is one way to impress a teacher who your subbed for. Yeah, the pay stinks, but it's all about that impression!
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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Wow. So many points brought up in one thread. I would like to respond to some, and I guess starting at the beginning is the best way to go.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind or opinion, but I would like to lay my perspective out there.

[QUOTE]I'm sure half, if not more, students would pick another course if you leveled with them and told them "Look, no one is hiring in a lot of places and those who are get thousands of applications". [QUOTE]

How do we know that the colleges and universities haven't counseled incoming students on their jobs prospects? We don't really.

Changes in education happen very, very slowly.
Quote:
I know it would suck for tenure professors, but they could always shuffle them around or put them in grad courses. Just fire the nontenure/ta they treat like dirt anyway. I really do universities should do something.
It's the economy. Nationally and internationally, the economy is very tough right now for many professions, not just education.

However, any response the colleges and universities will be slow.

About retirement. In my state, cushy retirement will soon be an oxymoron, if it isn't already. Within the next few months, it is expected that the state legislature will make serious changes in the five state retirement systems. This is partly where people are expecting large numbers of teachers to be retiring. They want to get out of teaching now while their retirement may still be o.k. Waiting much longer will change cost of living increases over the years and a lot more.

Teachers in the past who have retired have health benefits. I, more than likely, will not. As we all know, health insurance is a huge cost.


[QUOTE] These teachers I know who refuse to retire are no in their 50s. They're all 61 and up. Soon, they will qualify for social security. I really think it's just greed. [QUOTE]

Also in my state, there is something called the Windfall Act. I worked 10 years and paid into Social Security before I went to college. Those years had nothing to do with teaching. However, when I want to collect SS, my amount will be significantly reduced because I happen to be a part of the teachers' retirement system. In other words, even though I paid my SS taxes fair and square, I am not entitled to receive what others working the same amount will receive.

Working in your 60's/poor teachers - I think we would all agree that poor teachers, no matter their age, should go. Period.

However, I am an unemployed teacher. Just because I am not in my 30's and 40's why is it right that I should go through age discrimination as well as being unemployed? Energy? Yep. Enthusiastic? Check. Know my stuff? Got it. 20 years old? Sorry about your luck. Really?

No one should ever feel that they have to explain themselves to others as to why they are doing much of anything. However, I'll give you a little bit of perspective on why there are veteran teachers who need to work.

There's been illness in the family and large doctor and hospital bills need to be paid.
There have been other periods of unemployment from which the teacher is recovering.
Other members in the family are in very tough positions because of the economy and the teacher is helping them.
The teacher may be supporting and taking care of elderly parents.

OR

The teacher and his/her family are in excellent health, the house is paid off, there are no outstanding bills, the teacher is good at what he/she does and quitting does not appeal to him/her.

None of those reasons above are greedy. I think we give ourselves way too much credit when we think we know what's best for someone else.

I believe the majority of posters on PT are probably very good teachers. Why else would they spend time on a teacher website?

Older, younger, experienced, new - we all have a place in a balanced school setting. I would love to log on to PT tomorrow and read post after post where people have been hired.
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