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Clarity Clarity is offline
 
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So the resource officer in the Florida
Old 06-05-2019, 09:53 AM
 
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school shooting is being prosecuted for failing to protect students.

Let me guess: If teachers are armed, they will also be prosecuted for failing to protect students if they panic and run instead of shooting the shooter?

Does anyone else see the problem with this? Finally, a way to blame the teachers for the regular and (now) expected carnage in our schools?


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Old 06-05-2019, 10:02 AM
 
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I do feel bad for the RO, who knows what we would do if we were in his place. I think its wrong to charge him.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:08 AM
 
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Nope - IMHO only teacher volunteers with regular ongoing training should be allowed to carry. Fully trained, calm under duress and and ready to protect our babies.

This “officer” was a coward and shame on him. He deserves what justice gives him.
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So you are saying the officer was NOT
Old 06-05-2019, 10:20 AM
 
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properly trained? Interesting.

I'm certain he thought he was trained. But how do ANY of us know what we would really do in that situation, trained or not?

Mark my words. This will not go well for any teacher who is foolish enough to get involved in this nonsensical way to avoid dealing with the real problem.
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Teachers
Old 06-05-2019, 10:38 AM
 
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Are they now considered, as fire personnel and police officers, “in harms way”. The pay should reflect this status as it does for fire and police. In our state, they get a much better pension, health care, and contract than teachers.


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Yes Clarity
Old 06-05-2019, 10:40 AM
 
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I do see the problem with this. It is a sad state of affairs.

Last edited by bedazzled1; 06-05-2019 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: Word omitted
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:09 AM
 
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First, I did not see any videos of the resources officer's response, just that people feel he did not protect students. Maybe he was trying to understand what was happening then come up with a plan. Maybe he was waiting for more officers to arrive. Here if a traffic stop turns into more than a traffic violation, four or five additional police cars will quickly arrive. If that's the kind of protection an officer gets for a person sitting in a car (and I am not debating how many officers should show up in such cases), then how can we expect one resource officer to rush into the building towards an active shooter?

Years ago, things happened. People dealt with it. They didn't seek revenge on another who was unable to prevent a horrendous tragedy. I believe if teachers are armed, they will also be liable for what they couldn't stop. What about the teachers who choose not to be armed? Will they be sued because they could have been armed?

My sister was beaten by a high school student, because she knew she couldn't hit this student. The teacher in the room called the office and stood at the door and watched. Years ago, if my sister didn't get the girl under control, someone else would have stepped in immediately and stopped it. She wouldn't have to wait for admin or a resource officer to run across campus and up the stairs. Had she at least been CPI certified, she could have restrained the student until help arrived. Somewhere the decision was made that Paras did not need to be CPI certified and absolutely under no circumstances were they ever to restrain a student.

My point is I'm tired of the blame being pointed at the wrong people. The tragedy was caused by the person with the gun, not the resource officer. Could the officer have handled things differently? I don't know. I wasn't there and I certainly don't have any police training. Sound familiar? (No educators make the laws that teachers must teach under...)

And... I'm not going off on anyone who has posted differing opinions here, so please don't think I am.
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It seems to me
Old 06-05-2019, 12:34 PM
 
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that the problem is that the resource officer was outside the building when the shots fired and did nothing. His job was to do something. But worse, he lied about it. He said he couldn't tell where the shots were coming from, and that was proved to be a lie. When other officers responded, he told them to stay back and not enter the building. Fortunately, he was ignored, and lives were saved. He hid in a building 75 feet away. Unfortunately, his lack of response cost five lives and four additional injuries. Had he admitted he wasn't up to the job he collected a salary for, perhaps a more effective officer would have been in his place.

Is his cowardice a crime? I don't know. Probably not. I'd have to see the charges and hear the evidence in order to come to a conclusion on that. But I don't think this is some nefarious contrived plot to scapegoat possible armed teachers in the future.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:12 PM
 
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The state of Florida has turned so much politically. But the teachers have said it- we do not want to be armed and most of our districts are listening. Today on the BATS page it was posted that the state's offered liability insurance will not cover those teachers who willingly arm.
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Response
Old 06-05-2019, 01:20 PM
 
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The blame should be focused on the shooter.

Regarding the officer... training... protocol... personal courage... all come into play. Did he think he could handle an emergency? Did those who hired him? Was he adequately armed? Students get lock down, active shooter drills. What do security guards get?

I have lots of questions. But one thing that I do believe is that no teacher should be armed.


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Who mentioned nefarious plot?
Old 06-05-2019, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
But I don't think this is some nefarious contrived plot to scapegoat possible armed teachers in the future.
One does not have to posit a nefarious contrived plot in order to have an ability to predict logical outcomes of poorly-thought-out schemes.
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He did nothing
Old 06-05-2019, 01:57 PM
 
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I live in Florida, I have seen the video of the SRO several (maybe many) times. He literally did nothing. He didn't even enter the building.

I cannot judge his intent or his state of mind. I don't know what he thought was happening. But, his response never happened, he lied about it, and children died.

He only had ONE job to do. Do I think he would have been in harm's way? Probably. Do I thing he needs to be prosecuted? Probably not. Some other form of discipline seems appropriate here.
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Shooting
Old 06-05-2019, 02:29 PM
 
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I don’t know all the details of this particular situation. However, I do remember during our ALICE training the police officers stressing to use the importance of not freezing which is a natural reaction to this types of situations. The importance of us practicing drills without students present was also stressed. They knew the students would follow our lead so we must know what to do. They talked about how they train 100’s of hours in order to be the ones rushing in past us as we run out. They must be able to be calm and make rational decisions, to shoot when they need to shoot and try not to shoot innocent bystanders all within split seconds. It’s something that I know I couldn’t do without 100’s of hours of training myself. If even then.
A few days after our training we were put to the test. We took all the students out for dismissal and were standing there when the gym teacher got word on her radio that there was a high speed pursuit coming down our street. The parking lot goes all the way to the street. She started yelling at us to move and at first we all just stared at her. After a few times we finally all started moving. We talked about it after and we were kind of shocked how we froze in place when we had just had the training about not doing that. (The pursuit was stopped before they reached us.)
I just wonder if these guards are properly trained or just given a gun license. Our custodian was a former combat marine that had a gun locked in a gun box in his truck. We called him first whenever we discovered a break-in or a weapon on campus. Our principal declined to be armed at school even after she purchased a gun and took conceal carry classes. The district next to us armed several teachers in each building.
It’s just all so crazy.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:44 PM
 
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Quote:
But I don't think this is some nefarious contrived plot to scapegoat possible armed teachers in the future
PE, I agree with you that's it's unlikely that this situation was created with any malicious motive. BUT I can see how it could easily be used as precedent for others who may wish to scapegoat teachers in the future. Teachers have a job. It's teaching. It's not security guarding. If district decision makers think children should have armed protection in the building, they need to cough up the bucks to hire a trained, uniformed, open-carrying officer who is willing to take on that role. It is sad that the officer at Stoneman Douglas HS was not up to the task, but that doesn't mean we hand over that job to someone even less qualified, and who is busy doing a different job - teaching! Maybe better training, maybe more officers, maybe better psychological testing of candidates for the job of resource officer are all in order. Certainly common sense should prevail.
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The resource officer
Old 06-05-2019, 05:44 PM
 
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was a deputy for the Broward County Sheriff's office. Presumably well trained and experienced.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:29 PM
 
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This was not a security guard. He was a fully trained police officer. He went against protocol by not entering the building. He also left the area and hid out among the evacuated students and staff. I don’t feel all the counts are justified but bottom line he is a cop who failed to perform the job he was hired to do.
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not sure I agree with this decision
Old 06-06-2019, 03:44 AM
 
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I think I remember hearing that the officer had been given information that the shooter was outside... These situations are unfolding so quickly, it's hard to know what information the officer had at that moment. It seems unfair to judge him based on what we know now vs. the information he had at that time.
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Exactly!
Old 06-06-2019, 04:28 AM
 
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Presumably well trained and experienced.
If your average, run-of-the-mill, well-trained and experienced law enforcement officer panics and fails to do as trained, how will a teacher who had a few hours of target practice do?

Probably not so hot.

Since a certain element believes that the mere presence of a gun in the hands of a "good guy" is the answer here, I just wonder if they will have the common sense to understand that, while there may be lots of "good guys" with guns, a large portion of them will still either not be able to act at all or will act in ways that complicate and confuse the situation even more.

But as long as we don't focus on the real problem, it will never be solved, will it?
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:58 AM
 
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I think it is dangerous to look back at events so closely and decided whether a person's actions and movements are "right or wrong" and I see it happening so much any more with the increase of available video from different angles and places. When you are in a situation, you don't usually have the benefit of being able to study video footage from a variety of locations, and interviews about what others saw or heard and what not. You have milliseconds to make choices and decisions off of what you see and hear in the preceding milliseconds from the vantage point of your own position.

We do this over and over anymore with police actions, teacher actions, military actions, medical personnel, and some parent actions. How do you think your parenting would look if we went back and played every response you ever made to a situation and analyzed the different responses you could have made and measured them against the one you made? Many of our responses aren't going to be the best one we could have chosen. However, you make the best decision you can in the minute, and you hope for the best.

Also, wasn't there a point where the reaction to these situations was changed? I know we were originally taught to hide and evade. Now we are being taught to fight back. I am pretty sure there was a shift in the way the police were training to respond to them, too. Not being trained in that way, I don't know the ins and outs. I also would hate to sit in judgment of someone else's response. I am almost 100% sure no one working in a school seriously thinks they are ever going to have to respond to a mass school shooting, even if they are trained. It just isn't something anyone thinks likely. You don't take the job because you are gung ho on running into a barrage of flying bullets by yourself with no backup. You aren't paid enough, for one thing.
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I think we have more to be concerned with
Old 06-06-2019, 04:59 AM
 
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than the few teachers who may choose to carry guns to protect their students.

When these shootings occur, there have been several incidents where teachers have placed their unarmed bodies (and their lives) between themselves and the shooters. And for good reasons, they are lauded as the heroes that they are, while their families are left to mourn.

I'd be more concerned that any teacher who does not act in this manner in the future would find themselves a pariah.
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That is a good point, PrivateEyes -
Old 06-06-2019, 05:16 AM
 
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I'd be more concerned that any teacher who does not act in this manner in the future would find themselves a pariah.
Future contracts will probably include an oath to put students' lives before the teacher's own life or pay a fine for not throwing oneself into the path of bullets. Not what any of us signed up for.
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good point
Old 06-06-2019, 06:24 AM
 
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When these shootings occur, there have been several incidents where teachers have placed their unarmed bodies (and their lives) between themselves and the shooters.

When we first started to have the active shooter drill we were told that the students should take cover in the coat room which had cinderblock walls with a wooden door. The teachers were told that they should press their body against the door in case the attacker shot through the door. Yup, my little body as a defense against an armed attack.
I can not say whether or not I would do that. However, all I could think of at the time was..that is WAY above my pay scale and the union better demand life insurance for all of us with a hefty death benefit for our relatives.
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Awful
Old 06-06-2019, 08:56 AM
 
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This whole discussion is awful. To think that anyone would be in this situation is terrible. I don’t think anyone knows what they would do in this situation.

Teach 5, it sounds that your principal was considering carrying a weapon but after training had second thoughts. This is too much to ask of an educator. If a police officer can “fail” to act despite training, how could a teacher be expected to rise to the occasion.

We need sensible gun regulations, better mental health treatment, but gun regulation most of all.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:19 AM
 
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I don't know what the answer is as far a convicting the officer. And, as a poster mentioned, it probably will hold teachers that carry responsible for taking/not taking action.

What I have personally observed in the schools where I have taught is that the few officers that have periodically been in our building for a meeting or around our school building (mostly sitting in their car for the parent pick up line) are near retirement age and do not seem to be in physical condition to pursue or protect anyone from a shooter on the move in or around a school.

Seems that a result of what happened at this school, there should be a wake up call to provide the resources for school districts to hire officers who are more physically able to handle possible situations.

Seems like the ones they hire now can do little more than call for back up.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:25 PM
 
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He was not a resource officer. He was a fully trained armed police officer. To me that makes a difference
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