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Are we at fault for student behavior?

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pinacolada pinacolada is offline
 
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Are we at fault for student behavior?
Old 12-11-2015, 10:33 PM
 
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Typing from my iPhone so please excuse typos/grammar.

My father in law's best friend from India is staying at hour house for a bit with his wife. His wife is a principal in a public school in India. The other day, she saw me looking over the traffic light method for responsive classroom which led into a discussion about the difference in classroom management in the USA and in India. Now, India, if you have money, you send your children to private schools. Teachers at private schools are paid more than public school teachers (opposite of here). She mentioned a lot of things that got me thinking. I'm listing them below:

1) ADD/ADHD is almost non existent despite the fact that mothers of public school student do not get the best prenatal care and nutrition. Children also do not get nutritious organic food. Yet,ADD/ADHD is non existent.

2) Drop OUT rates are almost non existent too.

3) students can attend to lessons for a longer time without physical movement, pair sharing, etc. interactive teaching in India means the teacher asks questions and calls on students to answer. Kindergarteners can sit for half hour blocks. When assessed 90% can recall what was taught.

3) If a student misbehaves then he or she is called out in front of the class directly. Teachers don't wait to talk privately. If a student does something well is celebrated in front of the class and teachers say I love love/ like how... Being called out directly does not deter students, in fact, it pushes them to try harder.

4. Students are not allowed to move up if they don't meet basic standards. For example, you cant Go into first grade if you don't know your letters and letter sounds at the snap of a finger. You can't go to the next grade level if you aren't reading close to l, at, or above the grade level. So you would never have students reading at a DRA 10 or below start second grade, not lower than a 20 when entering third grade. You ha e to know your math facts up to 20 before entering section be grade etc. meaning it should be memorized.

5. Handwriting is stressed and taught. If a teacher can't read it, then it's thrown out. Students feel badly, but it doesn't stop them trying.

6. Scores are posted for all students/parents to see. Still does not deter students.

7. Students are placed in special Ed simply by teacher recommendation and standards mastery.


8) parents and students respect teachers.

9. Students are taught the value of hard work and precision. Everyone is held to the same expectations. There is little differentiation, small group, guided reading group, instruction etc.

8. From a young age, students are told if they "failed". There is no you did this really well but let's work on this. Instead it's direct and to the point. You failed. She said students then Understand the urgency


There is no PD on classroom/behavior management as it is not needed.


She then said US needs to prepare students fir like life. Tell them they will fail and sometimes no matter how hard they try they will still fail. Time is short. No need to highlight the positives just tell them what they did wrong, need to improve on, and what level they are at. There is no hiding or sugar coating facts.



Anyways, this got me thinking. Why do we have so many behavioral issues and he fe gaps among ngvthe students in our classroom??



Last edited by pinacolada; 12-11-2015 at 11:18 PM.. Reason: Did not finish
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I hear you.
Old 12-12-2015, 07:58 AM
 
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There are so many cushions placed around students in the United States - only in school! At home, Lord knows what they see and hear and are allowed to do! To tell a parent a child is failing, and all you hear are blame and excuses about the previous teachers, schools, and everyone else but the parent. Parents lie and say they spend hours on homework, that they stay "on her butt" every night, and sign for work that is crap - just to say homework has been done and checked over by them. I can have kids turn in work with sloppy writing, misspelled words, and incorrect answers, yet a parent will sign it to say they "checked it"! This is so frustrating because it is a detriment to the child! Repercussions will come, but because we move the children on, it will be "our fault" to the next teacher. Something has to be done with our broken system. Kids now have more resources, services, and help, yet they are in no way stronger than previous generations.
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Old 12-12-2015, 08:02 AM
 
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Think about what we have to go through to get any of that accomplished. I want to retain 3 kids (unheard of in my district) and I'm basically going to have to give a kidney. The paperwork and meetings monthly are ridiculous. And even then they won't be retained.

To get a kid an eligibility takes an act of God. They have to go through RtI, etc before it can even be considered.

If we called kids out for behavior we'd have parents and principals all over us. I don't think WE'RE responsible for student behavior and grades, I think we're working under the constraints dictated to us by the government, the district, admin and parents, all of whom think they know our jobs better than us.

In other countries, teachers are treated like the professionals they are and given the respect they deserve.
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Old 12-12-2015, 08:12 AM
 
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What percentage of children in India actually attend school in the first place? What are their family circumstances? What happens to all the other children?

People my DH met in Pakistan were surprised by how far "behind" our schools were (re curriculum, topics being studied). But their children were the elite in that culture. I think we've all read about the children at the other end of the spectrum. Those fortunate enough to go to school tend to appreciate it.

We have to look at all aspects, not just those that make our point.
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Culture
Old 12-12-2015, 09:37 AM
 
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Different cultures are more "we" focused than "me" focused and this makes a huge difference. The US is more "me". In "we" societies you're individual behavior is seen as integral to the whole and that motivates the individual , so correction in front of the class makes sense. In "me" cultures, it is about individual rights and internal motivation based on that individual (not how it helps the whole). There are many other cultural differences that play a huge part in classroom differences.


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Old 12-12-2015, 11:58 AM
 
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In conversations like this, I always try to keep in mind that the U.S. is often uniquely different in that every single child attends school. We don't have classrooms filled with only the elite privileged or with students so grateful for an unusual opportunity. In the U.S., education is a right and is therefore taken for granted.

That being said, I believe we (as in education, not individual teachers) do cause a lot of our own problems in regards to behavior and mastery gaps. We're so afraid of embarrassing, hurting feelings, and getting in trouble that we tie our own hands and can't do what needs to be done.
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Very Interesting
Old 12-12-2015, 12:32 PM
 
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It is food for thought. I think we are too easy on kids today in some ways.

I am using Class Dojo for the first time this year. In my homeroom class I have six out of 20 parents who did not sign in to see daily reports on their third grader's daily behavior. I have sent hope multiple invitations and yet they do not join. I am at a loss as to why they do not want this information. They do have technology, that is not the issue.

Luckily my other class has 100% participation of parents. And no surprise, this is my better behaved class. They know their parents are holding them accountable. Parent expectations make a difference.
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Far from unique
Old 12-12-2015, 01:32 PM
 
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At my school, we get a lot of new-to-Australia from India and Pakistan, and have in the past had large numbers of Afghani refugee children. The differences in their experience and expectation of school is huge.

I remember one little Indian girl (Year 4, so about 9 years old) who was a whiz at anything mathematical, and could perform calculations using formulae way above her grade level in our system. However, she had no understanding of the concepts behind the formulae. she could do it easily, but didn't really know what she was doing, why she was doing it, or how it could be useful in reality.

Similarly, we get children who can read in English fluently. They understand the phonics and have been drilled in the language. But they don't actually speak the language and can't understand what they are reading. Are they really reading? I don't think so. I could probably read a passage in Italian reasonably using my knowledge of phonics, but that doesn't mean I can "read" Italian.

In contrast, the Afghani and Pakistani children generally have no experience of school. If they have been in refugee camps, just being inside four walls for extended periods is very difficult for them. They usually have strong and supportive families, but with parents who are not literate in their own language, let alone theirs, and who are working long hours in menial jobs so their children can have the chance to be something better.

I think the "strong and supportive families" is the key to behaviour. Those for whom education is seen as a privilege take it as such and expect their children to take that privilege and work it with everything they've got. Western society is a few generations from that (education is a right, to us) and many parents see it as something we have to provide, not something they have to contribute to. They expect their children will move through one grade a year with no effort, because that's what happens. And that's not counting the families who don't believe in compulsory education, only send their kids (as little as possible) because it's the law and actively undermine us because "f***in' school never done me no f***in' good, and it ain't never gonna do no f***in' good for my kids neither" (direct quote from a parent I dealt with a few years ago, except she didn't star out the bad words.
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Interesting Thoughts
Old 12-12-2015, 02:35 PM
 
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This is an interesting discussion.
Like PPs, my first question is “Do they educate all children in India like we do in the United States?” Over the years I’ve had several children whose families were from India. When talking to those parents, it doesn’t sound like they do. Even though public education is compulsory and free for ages 6-14, the reality is that there are still children from poor families who don't go to school and the government does not go after those parents. I don’t think it is just a few children who are not attending school. If that is the case, then that might explain the “low” dropout rate stated by the principal. The children who never attended school to start with might be same ones who would have dropped out of school later. India has implemented changes during the past decade to give girls better access to schools. As a result, the enrollment for girls increased and the women’s literacy rate also improved nation-wide.
I just did a quick Google search on Education in India and read several different articles. I did not read anywhere that there was a low dropout rate. According to independent research conducted by Brookings Institute, “Despite improvements, keeping children in school through graduation is still an issue and dropout rates continue to be high. Nationally 29 percent of children drop out before completing five years of primary school, and 43 percent before finishing upper primary school. High school completion is only 42 percent. This lands India among the top five nations for out-of-school children of primary school age, with 1.4 million 6 to 11 year olds not attending school.”
My son is a professional, who works in a very diverse work environment. He has several colleagues, including an immediate supervisor, who are from India. Over the years, he has told me things from conversations he has had with them. Yes, the students develop sharp math skills but it is memorization-not problem solving. I found that to be true with the Indian children whom I’ve taught. My son also said that he was told that some Indian children are sent by their country to attend American colleges and work here to help them develop problem solving skills with the intent that they go back to help their own country. I cannot verify that statement.
I think our education system reflects our society-morals and values. Other cultures value education, see it as a privilege and as a means of helping their family get ahead. They respect teachers. Sadly, that is not happening in America. Some parents are raising very “entitled” children and not holding them accountable for anything.
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Old 12-12-2015, 03:39 PM
 
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This is from a public school in India. Public Schools are, for lack of a better term, for the "poor". Those students may not make it through high school due to familial reasons but expectations/standards are as she explained.


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Old 12-12-2015, 07:00 PM
 
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This is a good topic.

I have often thought that back in my elementary days [60s] we did a lot and learned a lot. Yes there were behavior problems but they were taken care of. There was no hand holding or awwwww, you don't have to do it because mommy called the P, and the P said you don't have to.

I would like to teach as I was taught, the old drill & kill way. I understand about knowing why/critical thinking but I think the basics need to learned before you get to the why.

I wish I had the opportunity to speak with others from a different cultural/country.

I think our way is not working and we need to look at what other countries are doing to increase our overall ratings.
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ExpatLand here...
Old 12-13-2015, 07:37 AM
 
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Handwriting. An Indian second grader will have the handwriting of an old school nun. Beautiful handwriting, but that is because beautiful hand writing signifies that you are educated (ie..upper caste). Parents are merciless on their kids not knowing how to write beautifully. And grandma will have you practice until your hand falls off. (not kidding).

I know for a fact an ASD child is not educated the same. My daughter has had at least one ASD/ADHD Indian child in her class K-5. The parents come over here to work, so their special needs kids have a chance.

There is a TON of drill and kill, which is why Kumon makes a fortune in our area. I've had Indian kids doing algebra in 1st grade, but they have no clue what are the concepts behind it.

The reason for no ADHD/special ed diagnosis , that greatly cuts down the pool on who this kid can get as a spouse. Marriages are still arranged, and there is a huge stigma over "different".

When you see Indian children here, and meet the parents, it is all people with either a) family money and b) upper castes. The private schools are hold overs from when the English occupied India. My husband went to school in England, and how he learned in the 1970s, is how it is still done today.

People misunderstand the we vs me. It is really more "your family" vs me. (at least for when dealing with kids). You never act up because you will disgrace your family. Your child is a reflection on your family, your skills as a parent, and you as a person.

You want a "good" family image because so much rides on it. Potential jobs, marriages, the pecking order within your social caste. You need a really good job, because you'll also be supporting your wife's parents. Whether it's money or having them move in.

My physical therapist is from Mumbai. She didn't want to come over because she had to give up her maid and cook. Teachers have servants/maids/house keepers. There is the very poor, the middle and the moneyed elite. Where I live, it's doctors/engineers/tech. The moneyed elite move to the coasts.

My Indian friend said it best, "It's fashionable to complain on how horrible the US school system is, but everyone fights like hell to get over here, and cries when they have to go back. If it is truly so horrible, it would cost almost nothing to keep the children back home. But they don't. .."

India is a huge country, with over 60 official languages. When I hear about the schools it's always upper caste/moneyed elite, and those people would truly have no clue what goes on with the "poors". They would never interact with them.

My two opinion pennies into the hat...
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