Or work for unemployment benefits? Should the government be able to require labor in compensation for money given? Isn't that what we all do? Frankly, I'd have them picking up litter on the side of the road, or other activities that benefit the taxpayer, rather than a business. But I see no problem with requiring work for benefits. TNSTAAFL (or at least there shouldn't be!)
Internships and apprenticeships have been giving free labor to business for years. There are some who are beginning to document the abuses of both of these. Free labor with the promise that some day, if you prove yourself, we might even hire you!
What kind of world do we live in when people are supposed to do something for the money they receive? We all know that money grows on trees or is taxed away from "rich" people. Why should people who get money from the government be expected to do something useful? It's truly shocking! Thanks for bringing this incredible wrong to our attention.
..then they need not accept it. They could merely say, no thanks.
Did you even read the article?
"Despite DWP rules, Reilly says she was told by the jobcentre that she would lose her benefits if she did not take the Poundland placement. "
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What kind of world do we live in when people are supposed to do something for the money they receive?
What kind of world do we live in when people do something but receive no money? Its unjustifiable especially when considering the profit these companies are making.
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Why should people who get money from the government be expected to do something useful? It's truly shocking!
If by do something useful you mean line the pockets of big business then yes.
Shelf stacking is not vocational training, it’s free labour. Also by having a revolving door of temp workers every 8 weeks why hire anyone? So it seems more counter productive IMO
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Thanks for bringing this incredible wrong to our attention.
Consider it a public service!
Last edited by Mr Sensai; 11-18-2011 at 02:18 AM..
If the sum of 53 pounds a week is insufficient compensation for (up to) 30 hours of labor, then the recipient of unemployment could choose to forgo BOTH the labor and the paltry benefit.
In the US, there are student teachers who not only labor for no money at all, but even pay for the privilege of working.
If the sum of 53 pounds a week is insufficient compensation for (up to) 30 hours of labor, then the recipient of unemployment could choose to forgo BOTH the labor and the paltry benefit.
See this is one of the reasons I can't back the far right mindset. It is a very limited way of thinking as the option of allowing such things to take place and then saying people have a choice is wrong IMO.
So the person is to receive no money at all then? The choice is either be exploited and work for free or get nothing? No thought of hey let's change the unfair system here as the company that makes huge profits COULD (and should) pay the worker but let's turn a blind eye to that instead and shift the blame to the worker.
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In the US, there are student teachers who not only labor for no money at all, but even pay for the privilege of working.
Which is wrong and should be illegal. This is why I never did my student teaching in the USA. No way am I paying for the privilege to work. Honestly I thought it was a joke when they said I could do student teaching
(paraphrased conversation)
College - are you going to do student teaching next semester
Me - how much do I get paid?
College - nothing
Me - huh ? So I can do it for free and it's no tuition ?
College - no you still pay tuition
Me - are you serious? What's the benefit then?
College - Yes and the benefit is to get a teaching credential for this state
Me - so I work for free, pay the college to work for free and at the end can only teach in one state in the USA?
College - Yes
Me - and people do this?
College - yes
Me - yea ummm no thanks
Then again the Universities do the same for the football/basketball..etc players. They sell jerseys with their number on it, they put them in video games and make millions off of them but the players don't see a dime.
Honestly I thought it was a joke when they said I could do student teaching
Yeah! Because teaching is soooo easy. No one needs to be trained to do it. There's no such thing as a master teacher. Incompetent...I mean inexperienced people should be paid to teach from day one!
Yeah! Because teaching is soooo easy. No one needs to be trained to do it. There's no such thing as a master teacher. Incompetent...I mean inexperienced people should be paid to teach from day one!
*sarcasm meter goes off*
I never said student teaching should not be required. I was opposed to doing it for free. I should have clarified better I guess
I never said student teaching should not be required. I was opposed to doing it for free. I should have clarified better I guess
Ooooohhh, I get it now. You just meant that American teachers are reeeealllyyy stupid for valuing the expertise of mentor teachers so much that they are willing to spend time and money learning from them.
Ooooohhh, I get it now. You just meant that American teachers are reeeealllyyy stupid for valuing the expertise of mentor teachers so much that they are willing to spend time and money learning from them.
You added a few too many e's and y's. :P
*If I was chosen to be a mentor teacher and got extra money for doing it and the future teacher being mentored got no money then that extra cash I got I would give the person I am mentoring*
Last edited by Mr Sensai; 11-20-2011 at 01:43 AM..
*If I was chosen to be a mentor teacher and got extra money for doing it and the future teacher being mentored got no money then that extra cash I got I would give the person I am mentoring*
I would expect nothing less since you have already expressed the opinion that a mentor teacher's expertise is of no monetary value to a novice.
I think mentoring should be free for professions like teaching, medical,...etc as it is for the greater good.
If something is for the greater good, it should be free? Using that logic, doctors and teachers shouldn't be getting a paycheck at all. If mentoring is for the greater good, then certainly what they do every day in their profession is for the greater good. I guess that goes for firemen, policemen, and nurses too.
%-/
Obviously people deserve to be paid for their work even when it is for the greater good, but your compete naivete is just so unexpected...and quite Pollyanna. :-)
Whether or not you can understand or admit it, master teachers do have something of great value to teach novices. Their expertise does have monetary value. Many, many teachers here have paid to receive that valuable training and realize that they are better teachers for the experience.
If something is for the greater good, it should be free? Using that logic, doctors and teachers shouldn't be getting a paycheck at all.
Last I checked going to public school is free and in most countries going to see the doctor is free. By free I mean no (or very low) out of pocket expenses.
Also as I said in the 1st post how is stacking shelves for free for a company that makes windfall profits "training" ?
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but your compete naivete is just so unexpected...and quite Pollyanna. :-)
No I would say it leans towards socialism and communism. ;)
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Whether or not you can understand or admit it, master teachers do have something of great value to teach novices. Their expertise does have monetary value.
Nobody is saying that these master teachers don't have expertise (thanks for assuming again though). The point is should it be free on the job training. I would never charge to share my expertise. Why withhold information that helps someone? Greed? Ego?
Do you charge co-workers if they had a question? Why should student teachers be any different? That and many companies train their new employees and don't make them pay extra to have such training.
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Many, many teachers here have paid to receive that valuable training and realize that they are better teachers for the experience.
AH HA! Now it makes sense! Since you and other teachers had to pay for the training future teachers should too! Seems selfish if you ask me.
...because it was not in any way pertinent to the argument. I certainly would not (could not) charge a colleague MONEY to answer a question, but on the other hand, I would expect him/her to answer any questions I might have. (Quid pro quo)
Going back to your response, are you saying that it's OKAY to charge to give your expertise to some students (the little kidlets in your class) but not other students (the future teachers?)
Check again, it most certainly isn't free. In my state, residents pay taxes to support the school. None of the teachers, administrators, or support staff work for free. They are all paid.
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No I would say it leans towards socialism and communism. ;)
Yes, as I said, very Pollyanna.
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Do you charge co-workers if they had a question? Why should student teachers be any different?
A co-worker is a peer and does not require the investment of time and energy that a student teacher needs. A relationship with a peer is an interdependent one, not a mentor-student one. Again, a student teacher is very different than a master teacher/mentor. The master teacher has something of monetary value (experience and knowledge) that the student teacher does not have.
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AH HA! Now it makes sense! Since you and other teachers had to pay for the training future teachers should too! Seems selfish if you ask me.
No one "had to" pay for training. We chose to. I realize you are having a hard time understanding this, so I'll say it again. We greatly value teachers' expertise, so much that we are willing to pay to be trained by them--and expect to be paid when we have acquired the knowledge and skills of a master teacher and are in a mentor role. It is you who devalues the teacher and wants him/her to be some sort of martyr who works for free. As P.E. said, a college student is just another of a teacher's students. He/she deserves to be paid to teach all his/her students.
In the US, there are student teachers who not only labor for no money at all, but even pay for the privilege of working.
Which is wrong and should be illegal. This is why I never did my student teaching in the USA. No way am I paying for the privilege to work. Honestly I thought it was a joke when they said I could do student teaching
(paraphrased conversation)
College - are you going to do student teaching next semester
Me - how much do I get paid?
College - nothing
Me - huh ? So I can do it for free and it's no tuition ?
College - no you still pay tuition
Me - are you serious? What's the benefit then?
College - Yes and the benefit is to get a teaching credential for this state
Me - so I work for free, pay the college to work for free and at the end can only teach in one state in the USA?
College - Yes
Me - and people do this?
College - yes
Me - yea ummm no thanks
I felt very fortunate when I was in college to still live with my parents. I had little to no responsibility for bills, which allowed me to student teach. I felt incredibly sorry for my peers who lived on their own and had to work full time along with student teaching. What made it even worse is that one of our professors told them to quit their jobs because there was no way they could student teach and work full time. A lot of people in this situation did not finish their degrees because of this. I comepletely agree that, at minimum, student teachers should be payed minimum wage. Not every college student lives at home.
A lot of people in this situation did not finish their degrees because of this. I comepletely agree that, at minimum, student teachers should be payed minimum wage. Not every college student lives at home.
Soooo....I guess we have some fans of the TFA model.
I worked throughout my college years. I did not live with my parents nor was I supported by them. When I reached the student teaching phase of my training, I stopped working and concentrated on student teaching. I had four years to plan ahead for it and consider it well worth my investment of time and money. I learned a lot from the master/mentor teachers with whom I worked and went into the classroom a much better teacher for the experience.
because it was not in any way pertinent to the argument. I certainly would not (could not) charge a colleague MONEY to answer a question, but on the other hand, I would expect him/her to answer any questions I might have. (Quid pro quo)
Yes it was pertinent. I find it interesting you would not charge a co-worker but charge a student teacher.
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Going back to your response, are you saying that it's OKAY to charge to give your expertise to some students (the little kidlets in your class) but not other students (the future teachers?)
The little kids are NOT paying for the class! Education is free. I would not charge the student teachers either and IF I got a stipend I would give it to the student teacher.
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Check again, it most certainly isn't free. In my state, residents pay taxes to support the school. None of the teachers, administrators, or support staff work for free. They are all paid.
Really? You are basing it not being free based on taxes? O.o
Overlooking the fact that the poor pay little (or nothing) in tax (as they should).
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Yes, as I said, very Pollyanna.
Not at all. I have given examples of communism working here in Japan (the garden). The city council is run by communists here too. Also many countries have nationalized health care and it is successful.
I'd say unchecked Capitalism is far more Pollyanna and the lie that anyone can reach the top if they just try hard.
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A co-worker is a peer and does not require the investment of time and energy that a student teacher needs. A relationship with a peer is an interdependent one, not a mentor-student one. Again, a student teacher is very different than a master teacher/mentor. The master teacher has something of monetary value (experience and knowledge) that the student teacher does not have.
Nonsense. A first year teacher can require just as much time if not more. I also feel the time and energy spent on mentoring is worth it as again it is for the greater good and this student could be your co-worker someday or teaching your child.
This opinion of pay me to train someone reeks of greed to me. I see it as a PRIVILEGE to be asked to train someone and again would not feel right taking money to do it.
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No one "had to" pay for training. We chose to.
Suuuurreeee. Choose not to and don't get your credential to teach in the state. Hell of a choice there.
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I realize you are having a hard time understanding this, so I'll say it again. We greatly value teachers' expertise, so much that we are willing to pay to be trained by them--and expect to be paid when we have acquired the knowledge and skills of a master teacher and are in a mentor role. It is you who devalues the teacher and wants him/her to be some sort of martyr who works for free. As P.E. said, a college student is just another of a teacher's students. He/she deserves to be paid to teach all his/her students.
Other jobs give free on the job training and do NOT charge the employee to be trained. Why should teaching be any different? My late grandfather trained his replacement before he retired and did not charge the kid for the training.
You see it as being a martyr and I see it as doing the right thing and giving back. I tutor a few orphans for free so does that make me a martyr then? Does it devalue my teaching for tutoring for free?
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I felt incredibly sorry for my peers who lived on their own and had to work full time along with student teaching. What made it even worse is that one of our professors told them to quit their jobs because there was no way they could student teach and work full time. A lot of people in this situation did not finish their degrees because of this. I comepletely agree that, at minimum, student teachers should be payed minimum wage. Not every college student lives at home.
Very good point as not all are lucky enough to be living at home and have no bills (or a scholarship for that matter). Pay the student teacher at the very least minimum wage (as I said earlier same goes for student athletes) instead of exploiting them.
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I worked throughout my college years. I did not live with my parents nor was I supported by them. When I reached the student teaching phase of my training, I stopped working and concentrated on student teaching. I had four years to plan ahead for it and consider it well worth my investment of time and money
See this is main issue I have with conservatism and the far right. It is limited and only based on the mindset that well if I can do it anyone else can.
Really? You are basing it not being free based on taxes? O.o
Overlooking the fact that the poor pay little (or nothing) in tax (as they should)
Of course, public school is not free. You are in gross error here.
By the way, the poor pay many taxes. If not directly, taxes are included in the cost of the rent they pay and the services and products they buy. O.o
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Suuuurreeee. Choose not to and don't get your credential to teach in the state. Hell of a choice there.
I could easily have gone with an alternative certification route available in my state. I did not. I did not believe that it would adequately prepare me for the classroom. Again, I believe that experienced teachers have something of value to teach.
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I'd say unchecked Capitalism is far more Pollyanna and the lie that anyone can reach the top if they just try hard.
Yes, I do have a lot of confidence in my fellow man. I know that most can take care of themselves and their families. It is a lie to tell people they can't and that they need the government to take care of them. A dangerous lie that, if told often enough, people come to believe--as you certainly have. :-(
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Other jobs give free on the job training and do NOT charge the employee to be trained.
Most training is not free. Someone pays for it. Your grandfather was likely paid by the company for which he worked. They considered it a worthwhile investment--just as student teachers do. Of course most teachers already give more of their time than is contractually required. They choose to do that in many cases. Expecting teachers to donate MORE of their time is certainly to devalue it.
Soooo....I guess we have some fans of the TFA model.
I worked throughout my college years. I did not live with my parents nor was I supported by them. When I reached the student teaching phase of my training, I stopped working and concentrated on student teaching. I had four years to plan ahead for it and consider it well worth my investment of time and money. I learned a lot from the master/mentor teachers with whom I worked and went into the classroom a much better teacher for the experience.
Good for you! But unfortunately this do not happen for everybody. What if you had kids? Could you just say "sorry kids, mom has to student teach this semester, so good luck on having food!"
Good for you! But unfortunately this do not happen for everybody. What if you had kids? Could you just say "sorry kids, mom has to student teach this semester, so good luck on having food!"
Did these people not have children when they started the university program? Did they not realize student teaching was part of the degree program? I don't understand how they couldn't plan ahead. Student teaching isn't something that is sprung upon college students. They have 3-4 years advance notice.
By the way, the poor pay many taxes. If not directly, taxes are included in the cost of the rent they pay and the services and products they buy. O.o
Wait so the GOP mantra that only the rich pay taxes is wrong? ;)
If I recall property taxes fund the local schools mostly. Poor people pay far far less in property taxes than say the rich person with a nice home.
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I could easily have gone with an alternative certification route available in my state. I did not. I did not believe that it would adequately prepare me for the classroom. Again, I believe that experienced teachers have something of value to teach.
Do you think the alt certificate would be a hindrance on a resume?
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Yes, I do have a lot of confidence in my fellow man. I know that most can take care of themselves and their families. It is a lie to tell people they can't and that they need the government to take care of them.
Why do you see it as the government taking care of them? I call it leveling the playing field and trying to give the poor a chance.
You have far more confidence in your fellow man than I do. I feel left to their own devices man will screw up more often than not or be exploited by the rich and the government can provide a much needed safety net.
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A dangerous lie that, if told often enough, people come to believe--as you certainly have. :-(
Just like the lie to the poor and middle class oops I mean shrinking middle class that they can also reach the top. :(
Then again they have to keep the middle class motivated or they will revolt with the poor. When a small percentage has the majority of the wealth I see that as a failure.
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Most training is not free. Someone pays for it. Your grandfather was likely paid by the company for which he worked. They considered it a worthwhile investment--just as student teachers do.
And teachers are paid by their district so what is your point here? The issue I have is the student teachers NOT getting paid and having to pay the college for the training. The new guy my grandfather trained was *gasp* paid by the company when he was trained. My Grandfather was NOT paid extra to train the new guy.
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Of course most teachers already give more of their time than is contractually required. They choose to do that in many cases. Expecting teachers to donate MORE of their time is certainly to devalue it.
I don't see it that way. I see being a mentor/trainer an honor. You see it as a chore and feel you should be paid for it and the trainee should not see a dime. Clearly we are too far apart on this.
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Did these people not have children when they started the university program? Did they not realize student teaching was part of the degree program? I don't understand how they couldn't plan ahead. Student teaching isn't something that is sprung upon college students. They have 3-4 years advance notice.
Gotta love the compassionate conservative mindset! Maybe they did not have kids when they started the program (I knew a few who were pregnant and going to school). Maybe the rising costs of tuition affected them saving more money? Maybe their SO lost their job?
There are various factors in play and to dismiss or imply those people are incapable of planning is misguided and wrong.
...between paying a college for a class in educational theory, or a class in educational practical experience?
In practice, very little of the tuition money goes to the mentor teacher. Most of it goes to the college granting the degree. I had a colleague who had an eight or nine week student teacher. Her compensation was $300. That means she got paid less than $40.00 a week to mentor and train a teacher.
It's not the student (who is getting a desired service in exchange for money) that is being shortchanged. It's the cooperating teacher is who being taken advantage of.
I see being a mentor/trainer an honor. You see it as a chore and feel you should be paid for it and the trainee should not see a dime. Clearly we are too far apart on this.
You misunderstand. Being a mentor is an honor that requires time and effort. A mentor teacher deserves to be paid to share his/her valuable experience. If a mentor chooses to donate the time--fabulous, but, the point is that it should be a choice.
I think the success and proliferation of sites like Teachers Pay Teachers shows that even peer teachers believe that too. We can share our expertise for free, or we can ask for payment. It's a choice--just like the one college students have about student teaching.
It's not the student (who is getting a desired service in exchange for money) that is being shortchanged. It's the cooperating teacher is who being taken advantage of.
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If a mentor chooses to donate the time--fabulous, but, the point is that it should be a choice
I see we are just too far part to find common ground on this issue.
I see and understand your point but I can't accept it. I just see it as greed and strongly feel student teachers should get paid for their work at the very least.
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I think the success and proliferation of sites like Teachers Pay Teachers shows that even peer teachers believe that too. We can share our expertise for free, or we can ask for payment. It's a choice--just like the one college students have about student teaching.
11-17-2011, 03:48 AM
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